In this episode of Speaking of Inclusion... I am joined by Daria Rudnik, team architect, executive leadership coach, and author of the book "Clicking".
Daria shares her expertise from years as a Chief People Officer, her global leadership experience, and her unique approach to helping teams move from surviving to truly "clicking"… especially in challenging and rapidly changing environments.
We also explore the real power of intentional team culture, those moments when a group of individuals comes together to achieve something greater than the sum of its parts.
Daria offers practical insights into how leaders can build meaningful connections, manage conflict in human-focused ways, and create team environments that include all voices at the table, even those that are quieter or more introverted.
Here are three key takeaways from today’s episode...
Team success isn’t accidental:
High-performing teams thrive on intentional culture-building, where the “how” of working together is just as important as the shared purpose or “why”.
Rules and norms provide clarity:
Defining how decisions are made, how meetings are run, and what behaviours are valued or not tolerated helps create trust and inclusive collaboration.
Influence comes in many forms:
Daria shares ideas for quieter or introverted team members to make their voices heard, not just during meetings but also before and after, and highlights that everyone has the power to shape the culture of their team, step by step.
Daria shares her expertise from years as a Chief People Officer, her global leadership experience, and her unique approach to helping teams move from surviving to truly "clicking"… especially in challenging and rapidly changing environments.
We also explore the real power of intentional team culture, those moments when a group of individuals comes together to achieve something greater than the sum of its parts.
Daria offers practical insights into how leaders can build meaningful connections, manage conflict in human-focused ways, and create team environments that include all voices at the table, even those that are quieter or more introverted.
Here are three key takeaways from today’s episode...
Team success isn’t accidental:
High-performing teams thrive on intentional culture-building, where the “how” of working together is just as important as the shared purpose or “why”.
Rules and norms provide clarity:
Defining how decisions are made, how meetings are run, and what behaviours are valued or not tolerated helps create trust and inclusive collaboration.
Influence comes in many forms:
Daria shares ideas for quieter or introverted team members to make their voices heard, not just during meetings but also before and after, and highlights that everyone has the power to shape the culture of their team, step by step.
In this episode of Speaking of Inclusion, I share how leaders can build inclusive, high-trust teams that truly “click”:
- Team success is intentional — strong teams don’t happen by accident; culture and ways of working must be deliberately designed.
- Clear norms create trust — defining decision-making, meeting practices, and acceptable behaviors strengthens collaboration and inclusion.
- Every voice matters — practical ways for quieter or introverted team members to contribute and shape team culture.
- Connection drives performance — meaningful relationships and human-centered conflict management help teams achieve more together.
(00:01-00:21) Katie Allen
Welcome along my aspiring allies and thank you for joining me on this most recent episode of the Speaking of Inclusion podcast. Today I am joined by Daria Rudnick and Daria is a team architect and executive leadership coach and also also the author of the book Flicking which we talked all about in this episode.
(00:21-00:44) Katie Allen
Now, she is a former chief people officer and ex-Deloitte professional, and she's got many, many years of international executive experience. And having lived across several countries and working with clients across six continents, I couldn't wait to have a conversation with her to have her share with us some of her secrets about helping leaders across Fortune 500 companies and fast-growing startups
(00:44-01:04) Katie Allen
to really navigate conflict, change, crisis, and build high-performing teams in this rapid world of change and disruption. So she is an absolute specialist when it comes to this kind of organizational design and development and the ways in which we can communicate and connect with one another, hence her book, Flicking.
(01:04-01:15) Katie Allen
So you know the drill. Please sit back, relax and get comfortable in whichever way works best for you. And please welcome Daria Rudnick to the Speaking of Inclusion podcast.
(01:24-01:48) Katie Allen
So I wondered if that might be a cool place to start is like how, I guess, what took place in your life that kind of led you to a point where you were just like, quick, this is it. Well, I've been working for more than 15 years in corporate and there is different scenarios.
(01:49-02:13) Daria Rudnik
And there were times when I was working in a bank, it was 2008 and the operations were suspended. I mean, it was really crisis situations. I was working for startups, mergers and acquisitions. And what I've seen is when you have a team, people working together,
(02:14-02:38) Daria Rudnik
they can overcome things and they can learn from those things and then can make things even better. Like an example with the bank, when the operations were suspended and there was a financial crisis and we couldn't work, we were afraid to lose our clients, we were afraid to lose our best employees and we just started in the country. But we got together, focused on,
(02:39-02:53) Daria Rudnik
the team, like what unites us, what's the value, how we wanna work together to go through the situation, how we overcome this crisis, how we communicate with each other. Like we really focus on the inside rather than outside.
(02:53-03:19) Daria Rudnik
And like what happened, we actually, well, we solved all the issues with the authorities that they wanted us to solve. And we didn't lose a single employee during that time because we were so much united by the shared goal and connections and conversations and collaboration and working towards that goal. And it was really powerful experience that showed me, wow, that's what you can do when you have a team, when you have a really teamwork.
(03:20-03:48) Daria Rudnik
And like, I've also seen situations when it was time of mergers and acquisitions and it was like, the company was acquired because of its customer experience, like how they treated customers, the relationships they had with them. And they also had a very nice culture, but, and this culture kind of evolved because the CEO or the leader was like involved in building this culture, but it wasn't built intentionally.
(03:49-04:10) Daria Rudnik
And once things changed, like once there were more people on the team, when there was like the dynamic with the parent company and then the COVID hit and we all went three mode, it all just fell apart because there were no clarity. There were no rules of how we work together, no rules of how we communicate. Like the funny thing, like the executive team,
(04:10-04:40) Daria Rudnik
was the team that was either like between 15 and 30 people. And no one knew who was on the executive team. Because at some point, there were 15 people, at some point, there were five people, and at some point, there were all 30 of them. And okay, how do we make decisions? How do we collaborate? Who is responsible for what? There was no clarity. And eventually, the company just kind of dissolved in the parent organization. They didn't want to keep it as a single unit, despite of all the experience with customer success and everything.
(04:40-05:09) Daria Rudnik
So when you have a team and when you have the team that has clear purpose, that has linking connections when people interact with each other, when you have integrated work, when you know the work norms and rules, where you have collaborative decisions and knowledge sharing, where you learn together, that makes your team click and that makes it possible to overcome any crisis situations or any challenging goals that you have.
(05:10-05:36) Katie Allen
Yeah, I love that you kind of identified all of that through like the repetition of examples that throw up. And as you were saying that, what really kind of stood out to me was like, yeah, it is. It's during times of crisis. That is when you either have the opportunity to shine or when if there are any kind of cracks, I suppose to speak, in what might be going on. That is when they're really exposed, isn't it?
(05:36-06:00) Katie Allen
yeah yeah that's true i mean when everything's fine everyone is fine yeah or even when things when it's just undulating just a bit up and down um you get by don't you like things might go a bit wrong but you can cope people are all right it's good like you do you just bump along and it's it's when yeah it's when things really do go sideways that you you understand and i like that you use the word intentional
(06:00-06:23) Katie Allen
because that's something that I see a lot like some workplaces have really good culture but it's accidental and then like you say when things start to slide or go a bit wonky they don't know how to maintain it because they don't know what got them there in the first place or really what the the strengths were and then it comes apart so quickly so I love that you called out that intentionality piece as well
(06:24-06:44) Katie Allen
Yeah, really good. And yeah, and there were quite some considerable crisis then businesses have been to, isn't it? That 2008 financial crisis and then COVID. Like, they're pretty extreme examples for people to have navigated. I mean, there are global crisis like this, but there were local...
(06:44-07:10) Daria Rudnik
And not so much crisis, but challenging situations like M&A and setting up obviously another country or like organizational transformation. Like personally, it can be very exhausting to people worse than COVID at some point. So yeah, any situation like that actually shows what really stands behind the culture of the organization, what really drives it forward. And it can just drive you or it can destroy you.
(07:10-07:39) Katie Allen
yeah yeah and and that's your background isn't it so the hr and the organizational development you've got so you've seen it all when it comes to like transformations and and you're just like i have got a list of things that i have seen but you're but you're so right it's the it is the it's the people within organizations that are impacted when these things happen and if you don't have that intentionality then it's the people that suffer right
(07:40-07:48) Katie Allen
yeah yeah interesting so so that brought you to then to your to your click model which I really like because it's
(07:48-08:14) Katie Allen
it it not only does it kind of work in a oh yeah teams click but then you know you can remember it as an acronym and who doesn't love an acronym right so i liked when you were talking about the integrated work and you mentioned around like norms and rules so again that's that intention piece so how how can leaders listening to this kind of think oh actually what are what are the norms and rules that we've we would know what would be examples or signs of of that
(08:16-08:43) Daria Rudnik
And I love the question, because a lot of people talk about purpose, which is very important, but it's absolutely clear. Most people, most leaders know we need to have a purpose, we need to have kind of relationships, but okay, you need to have the what, and interest work is the how. So how you work together, how you make it happen. And a very simple example is I was working with a team as a consultant, and the CEO called and said, okay, we have...
(08:43-09:02) Daria Rudnik
Conflicts on the team, people just try to persuade and do things their own way. And when I joined the team and I saw that they all were very passionate about team mission and they wanted the company to succeed. I mean, they were united.
(09:02-09:22) Daria Rudnik
And they were moving towards sort of the shared purpose. What they were missing is how they're going to get there. Because some of their team members thought, okay, we need just better distribution channels. And now they thought we need better materials to produce our products. And some thought, okay, we need more sales. I mean, various different thoughts of what's more important.
(09:22-09:39) Daria Rudnik
So they didn't have this, how they want to, and they didn't have the how they make decisions. Because, like, how do we make decisions? We get together, we talk, and then the CEO decides something. So... Textbook, right, though, is it? The person with the most seniority gets to be the one that carries the cam. Yeah.
(09:39-10:02) Daria Rudnik
There were so many ways to make the decision, and he didn't want to be this controlling leader who makes all the decisions, but they didn't know how to make decisions together. So we got together and decided, okay, what is that that we want to support on our team? What is that we want to see more of? Like the sort of keep it up behaviors. The behaviors that when you see a problem, how about that? Talk about that, but don't blame anything.
(10:02-10:24) Daria Rudnik
So there was a list of keep it up behaviors, behaviors that you want to see more of on your team. And there were cut it out behaviors, behaviors that they didn't want to tolerate. And they didn't want to tolerate when someone is blaming others. They didn't want to tolerate when someone is sharing concern, but kind of doesn't think about the solution. So there was sort of two lists, list of keep it up behaviors and cut it out behaviors.
(10:24-10:52) Daria Rudnik
And then eventually, well, they came to the, like they started working together, they started to collaborate through kind of those small exercises of how they want to do things, how they want to have their meetings, how they want to make decisions, like all those things. The interesting thing happened about six months after this engagement when CEO called me and said, hey, you know what? We're getting really, we're letting go the chief of sales.
(10:53-11:18) Daria Rudnik
OK, why? And he said the team decided that she's not part of the team anymore. Because why? Because she constantly shows some of the cut it out behaviors and she's not compliant with the keep it up behaviors. We decided that that's how we want to work together. And she's not doing that. And we decided as a team that she's not going to be part of our team.
(11:19-11:40) Daria Rudnik
And he said, yeah, okay. He didn't make this decision. He didn't force them to do anything. He didn't say anything. They, as a team, were able to identify how they want to work together and keep it and kind of stay true to that. So that's a great example of how this integrated work works.
(11:40-12:06) Katie Allen
I love that. That's a really good example. And then it enables you to have a difficult conversation because you've already pre-agreed. These are the ways in which we will work and we can provide you with evidence and demonstrate. We've said we're not going to do these things and you're doing these things. So it's a really clear, concise, intentional way of saying, here's how we work together and we can have difficult conversations when it doesn't happen.
(12:08-12:32) Katie Allen
Yeah, love it. Great framework. I really like that. And then how does that kind of move into when, you know, you talk about this, that moves into the collaborative decisions, right? But how does that also then support, because again, I know that you're really passionate about influencing as an introvert, right? So how does that support that to make sure that all voices get to be part of that collaboration?
(12:33-12:53) Daria Rudnik
Well, that's a great thing. And it's also related to different cultures. How do you, because some cultures are more hierarchical than others. Some cultures are more collaborative than others. Well, the thing is, we're talking about the team dynamics. We're not talking about in general how people need to behave. So when a team, you get together and you decide it together.
(12:53-13:08) Daria Rudnik
What decisions do you want to make as a team collaboratively? What decisions are important? What decisions do you say? Okay, the leader is making those decisions. And what is the process of making those decisions? Should we as a team get together, show some ideas?
(13:08-13:36) Daria Rudnik
share some ideas and then bring our best options to the team leader so that they decide it? Or should we all like with the leader get together and talk? So you get together with the team and you agree how you want to make decisions. What works for your organization? What works for your team? What works for your culture? And what works for every single person on the team? Because some people will like would want to share something in writing. Some people would want to speak it up.
(13:37-13:48) Daria Rudnik
just listen to how everyone is saying things and agree, okay, that's how we make decisions. Like that's our framework. And it will be unique for every team.
(13:49-14:14) Katie Allen
so I find that really interesting because because that's the key thing isn't it right teams are in essence made up of individual human people with their own preferences so and I in my head I'm thinking about teams that I've been in in the past and it may not surprise you but I'm a chatty Cathy and I am some I do all my thinking out loud usually annoyingly to other people who maybe don't appreciate that
(14:14-14:21) Katie Allen
So I have to vocalize things and sort of visualize it in front of me. So I'm really, you know, gesticulating with my hands as well.
(14:21-14:49) Katie Allen
And then I know as well that I've been in team environments with someone who is also a vocal expresser. However, our styles are really different in that I'm quite fast paced. When I'm going, my brain's like a roller coaster. We don't know where it's going to go. And he's much more slow paced and thoughtful and considerate, which for me is a challenge because I'm racing through thinking I've got to the point already that he's going to make, which may or may not be correct.
(14:49-14:54) Katie Allen
And then if we're also on a team with someone who likes to go away and think about things,
(14:54-15:23) Katie Allen
and wants to take some time out of this busy environment of talking so that they can process quietly and then come back. How do we bring all those together? Because I can imagine by the time that person's come back with their thinking, I've rolled off, I'm like 30 steps ahead and not really thinking about any of that anymore. And the other person in the middle still, they're still narrating their story to arrive at a point. So how do we make sure that all of those needs can be met?
(15:27-15:55) Daria Rudnik
In our current workplace environment, we're overusing synchronous communication. If you want to fit everyone into the same timeframe, it could be a challenge. It doesn't have to be that way. I mean, you can brainstorm asynchronously. You can share your ideas, think it at your own pace with some other people, without other people, whatever you like, and then get together to finalize the decision.
(15:56-16:17) Daria Rudnik
So again, sometimes most of the meetings, when we get to the meeting, we don't know, okay, what's expected for us? Are we here to ideate? Are we here to make a decision? Are we here to analyze? Are we here just to connect? So what is the energy I'm bringing to this conversation? So once I have an opportunity to think,
(16:17-16:28) Daria Rudnik
beforehand. Once I know what the type of input and energy is expected from me during this meeting, it becomes much more easier to kind of synchronize our efforts.
(16:29-16:56) Katie Allen
I love that as an answer, actually, because that makes a whole lot of sense in about if you break down or what I'm hearing here is breaking down the like the decision making process into its elements and being really clear about which element we're at. So even if I'm chatty, chatty, far, far, I don't get to rush to decision. I stay in the section that we're in until we've said, OK, this is the thinking space. And now we've done the thinking. We can move on to sharing that with each other.
(16:57-17:08) Katie Allen
And then we can look at playing it back and then we can look at decision-making and it keeps everybody on track as to where they are. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. And it doesn't have to be all at the same time, all in the same room. Yeah.
(17:08-17:34) Katie Allen
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I love that you called it out to start with. Actually, we do fall into this. You called it, was it synchronous communication where we think everything has to happen all in the same moment, whereas actually, and I guess sometimes that might be necessary, but actually more often than not, it probably doesn't need to happen that way. Yeah. Yeah. Especially in the more settings. Yeah. Yeah. And how...
(17:35-17:57) Katie Allen
how can leaders kind of introduce that as a thing because I can imagine people will be listening to this going oh yeah that's really interesting actually we just assume we put a meeting in and we're supposed to get to an outcome at the end of an hour because that's what blocks for us like how they could shake it up right so what what things could they do to shake it up and start to introduce that as a different theme for their team
(17:58-18:28) Daria Rudnik
Well, first of all, again, be very clear on if we talk about meetings, like what is that the main goal of your meeting? Like what is that you want to achieve within this meeting? Do you want to share ideas? Do you want to kind of make a decision? Because you have all the information. And if you don't have all the information, make sure that people are ready when they join the team. So they have information before joining the meeting that you can make a decision. So what is the main purpose? And I mean, it's obvious everyone knows that, but no one does that. There's no meeting without agenda.
(18:29-18:35) Katie Allen
Right. And I love that you said that because we all know it and no one does it.
(18:37-19:00) Katie Allen
Absolutely. Yeah. And actually, that's a really it's a really pertinent point when we think about the different ways in which we process information. If we've got an agenda, there will be those people like me who probably won't read it, probably won't follow it. But that's OK, because there'll be other people in that space that will make sure that we do. And then there'll be people like me who will happily toe the line when we're reminded that we're sticking to the agenda.
(19:00-19:15) Katie Allen
But for other people where that's really important to know, well, what are we doing and how are we following this? And I'm thinking when we talk about all the different types of neurodivergence that exist, all of the ways in which we process information,
(19:16-19:32) Katie Allen
giving in giving all of the information that is required so if i am someone that wants the full picture i get to piece that together and if i'm someone is like me who's like unlikely to read those things it doesn't matter like i don't lose anything i've still been given the opportunity to whether i take it or not is fine
(19:33-19:58) Daria Rudnik
And again, agendas is kind of a small rule of how we expect it to show up at this meeting. And like you said, if someone is showing up differently, we'll gently remind them, hey, here's the agenda. We're not talking about this topic yet. We're talking about that topic. And we can kind of back it up. Yeah, absolutely. And it's okay to remind people of that as well, because I often observe...
(19:58-20:07) Katie Allen
know there are those people who whether it's a power dynamic or whether it's just a personality can derail
(20:08-20:30) Katie Allen
the what's the word the like the progress or the the process within a meeting by just having their own thoughts and opinions and jumping to different points so it is also about knowing and and managing those people to say that we're not there yet like you say to pull people back kindly but firmly when it's required
(20:32-21:02) Daria Rudnik
It is also a trust issue, of course, like you said, like when there is trust on the team. So it kind of, you're building trust on your team and you build trust by following up the rules that you all agreed on. So whenever people like feel and know that we have rules, everyone follows those rules. Even if you're a leader, if you want the most senior person on the team, but you still follow the same rules, it creates trust and it's easier for everyone to call out, like to call those people and say, Hey, like not now, not here.
(21:03-21:24) Katie Allen
yeah yeah and and and in what ways can we help people kind of find their voice when it comes you know if they are perhaps one of the more introverted or quieter voices in a room full of you know bolder louder voices what what things can people do to kind of ensure they get to participate
(21:26-21:47) Daria Rudnik
Well, it's kind of, again, two ways to, obviously, like, organizations and teams need to be mindful and aware that there are different people. We need to make sure everyone's voice is heard and, like, especially later, seeing if everyone speaks up but someone is not, making sure they have, like, they have their say if they want to, if they're ready to.
(21:48-22:06) Daria Rudnik
Like, however, like if you, if no one's doing that for you, it doesn't mean that you just do nothing. There are lots of different opportunities to speak up and share your ideas and get support. It doesn't have to, again, it doesn't have to be at this meeting. Like when you are invited to a meeting, you know, the topic.
(22:06-22:36) Daria Rudnik
And you can reach out to the organizer and say, hey, I see we're talking about this. That's what I'm thinking. That's what I want to contribute. Is it something that would help you during this meeting? Is it something that you want to hear during this meeting? What do you think? Reaching out to the organizer, to some of the decision makers who's going to be on that team and sharing your ideas with them before the event so that you have some support. And when there was a meeting and everyone, many people know that you have something to say. And when you start to speak,
(22:36-22:46) Daria Rudnik
they'll be sharing the stage with you because they knew you have to say something. You prepared and they supported what you say. So you instantly have support.
(22:48-23:17) Daria Rudnik
Even if you didn't have the chance to talk before the meeting and you didn't have the chance to talk during the meeting, there was always a chance to talk after the meeting. When you can follow up on people and sharing, hey, thanks for leading this conversation. Here are some additional thoughts or here are some additional information or here is the question that I have after a meeting. Keep this conversation going. Again, it doesn't have to be during this meeting. It can be before the meeting, during the meeting, and after the meeting.
(23:17-23:36) Katie Allen
yeah yeah i love that because actually you know when a meeting room virtual or in reality when the meeting door closes it doesn't mean that all conversation stops does it absolutely yeah okay i really like that thank you for sharing that and what i liked as well in there is like leading um with
(23:36-23:58) Katie Allen
And I guess this comes back to the norms and rules that you spoke about that had to be agreed in advance, like normalising, adding in. Does anyone else have anything to add? You know, is there anything that we missed here? Has everybody shared what they wanted to share before we move on just to create those opportunities that if someone is kind of still mulling a thought,
(23:58-24:24) Katie Allen
they can choose whether or not they want to share it at that point, or maybe they can say, I'm having a thought, but I'll probably share it afterwards once I've thought about it a bit more, just laying the groundworks. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That makes a lot of sense. Thank you. I was interested, and I don't want to kind of play into stereotypes here as well, but as I was hearing that, I was thinking, I recall myself
(24:24-24:33) Katie Allen
historically having been in many meetings where I get interrupted and spoken over and I know that can be something that um
(24:35-24:59) Katie Allen
Again, if you're if you're creating those rules and norms that should be addressed. Right. But sometimes it still happens. And I've noticed more often than not, it's women that get spoken over and interrupted a little bit more. So what are the things that we can do to maybe address or or I guess counteract some of those other other experiences that some groups have that other groups don't?
(25:02-25:30) Daria Rudnik
Well, it's not an easy question. I don't have a solution, to be honest. It's either you... You can't solve the patriarchy in one question. Sorry, Dario. It's either you find the strength to say, hey, just I'll finish. Let me finish, please. Just calm. I know, I mean, it's very hard to say calm. But that's the most important thing.
(25:30-25:54) Daria Rudnik
uh or again you just build relationships with these people earn their respect i know it's it might sound not fair i mean why should i when someone doesn't have to do that they just go at birth for me it depends on like what do you want to achieve if you want to reach your goals okay you do that you do anything you can to reach your goals
(25:54-26:11) Daria Rudnik
And eventually, with conversations like this, with podcasts like yours, people hear that we need to give space. We need to be mindful about different voices. We need to be aware of our biases. Things will change. So again, it goes both ways.
(26:11-26:41) Katie Allen
Yeah, yeah. And I think it's and it certainly is changing. I think people are becoming aware. And again, like I said, I don't want to play into the stereotype because it's not necessarily gendered, but it frequently is gendered. So while while that is the case, we should probably call that out. But I like that. Yeah, there is two sides to this, isn't there? Which is standing firm for yourself when I guess when you feel psychologically safe enough to do so. And that's a that's another section of this, isn't it?
(26:41-26:56) Katie Allen
um and also paying attention to what's going on in the meeting space outside of your own thoughts and feelings right what's happening for other people and how can you interject when it feels like it might be required yeah
(26:57-27:14) Katie Allen
yeah okay cool um so i know um you mentioned as well a little bit earlier on around uh when you're kind of bringing teams together and creating those norms because actually that helps reduce conflict and i know that you yourself have kind of spoken about conflict and
(27:14-27:44) Katie Allen
and helping teams navigate conflict but you kind of have your own personal experiences that you can kind of draw on from a societal perspective of having seen conflict i haven't used so tell us tell us a little bit about that give give my give the listeners and viewers just a little bit of an insight as to like who you are and how have you arrived where we've arrived at well uh i'm originally again my background is in hr but i'm originally from moscow russia and i moved to israel three and a half years ago so yeah i've seen conflict
(27:44-28:10) Katie Allen
yeah yeah and obviously i don't want to you know don't please don't don't feel like you have to talk about anything that you know you're not comfortable talking about but um i can imagine there are i guess parallel skills that you learn just navigating life um that can come obviously hopefully not in the same way in a in a like a boardroom or a leadership position but there are there are skills i guess in diplomacy and uh
(28:10-28:20) Katie Allen
handling yourself so how how does that kind of shape who you are and how you handle these things do you know i don't i'm
(28:21-28:41) Daria Rudnik
I don't like conflict. And like, if we talk about personality types, I'm a kind of a conflict avoid, I'm avoiding conflict, which is not a kind of something I'm proud of. And I kind of was trying to work like on myself, like overcome that. But eventually I, I came to the conclusion that it's not like that. I don't like conflict. I don't like conflict.
(28:41-29:10) Daria Rudnik
being aggressive. I don't like young people are aggressive towards me. I don't like to be aggressive towards other people. And conflict itself is not a bad thing. How it's handled and how it becomes hurtful and kind of hurting individuals or hurting people. When conflicts are hurting individuals and people, that's a bad thing. But when it's conflict, because we think we see the world in a different way, it's okay. I mean, I...
(29:10-29:24) Daria Rudnik
I have talked to a lot of people who disagree with me in terms of current conflict situations. But we can have respectful conversations, curious to learn other person's perspective.
(29:24-29:43) Daria Rudnik
So that's, for me, is the most critical thing is how to be in the conflict while still being human and respecting the other side. And I'm not going to talk about, I don't know how to solve the world conflicts, but I do know how to solve organizational conflicts. So when you are in organizational conflict,
(29:44-30:13) Katie Allen
Be curious about other person's opinion and try to understand them. When you try to understand them, well, they hopefully become curious in your opinion, trying to understand you. And that's when you can find some mutual solution. Yeah, totally. And I love, and thank you for sharing that. And I love what you were saying there about actually, like conflict isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's just the highlighting of some of a different set of beliefs or different perspectives or different experiences. And yeah,
(30:14-30:34) Katie Allen
I guess, in a leadership context, it's very difficult to find the absolute right and wrong in any of that. It's just perspectives. And as you say, being curious to lean into that and to just understand where the other person is coming from. And it doesn't mean that you have to agree with them.
(30:34-31:03) Katie Allen
Like, it doesn't mean, you know, you don't have to go in trying to convince each other that you're right or wrong. It's just about understanding, isn't it? To go, well, how do we move beyond where the current conflict is? Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I think that's really helpful to just highlight that actually everyone's human and we're human at work as much as we're human at home. And having those conversations is so important.
(31:04-31:26) Katie Allen
um just going back then to you because i know that we talked about your your click uh method at the start and i know you've quite candidly written a book on this as well for people that want to know more yeah there you go there we go properly good clicking tell it so tell so tell us about like how did that become the book um and i guess why should people buy it because that's what we're that's what we want people to do right
(31:27-31:57) Daria Rudnik
I really wanted to do... Well, there are multiple reasons why I wrote the book. One of them is that's how I structure my thoughts. I've tried this and that and I've tried different tools and exercises. How do I structure it the way that I know it? I can explain it and people can use it. Whether with my help or without my help. Even since the time when I was Chief People Officer, my main goal and mission was to
(31:58-32:18) Daria Rudnik
create more happy and fulfilled workplaces because people deserve to be happy at work. I love my work at St. Pines and I want people to be happy at work and we can do that and we can create those kind of spaces when there was a great teamwork, amazing culture and leaders who actually try to do that.
(32:18-32:45) Daria Rudnik
So, and the book is part of this mission. When you can get the book, you read the book, there are tools that you can try and use. And even by doing those, keep it up and counter our behaviors, or even by doing a team charter or any other tool that's in the book, it'll move your team towards having meaningful conversations, better connections with each other. So tools themselves are not that important as the conversations you're having while creating those tools. So, like,
(32:47-33:13) Katie Allen
I forgot the question. I know, it's cool. But just to be a part of it, because I think you've made a really pertinent point there, which is that you can give anybody any manner of tools. You can give me a spade for my garden, but if I don't go out and use it, and this is what I'm saying, you are going to help provide the frameworks and the tools, but you've got to go and have the conversations. You've got to implement them and put them into practice and use it for good if you're going to change anything, right?
(33:14-33:40) Katie Allen
yeah yeah so um so how if if people kind of are curious to know more about the book where can they get it from well the book is is it's available on amazon on like major retailers um so it's pretty much everywhere that was that's a good question where can people get your book you like from places that sell books katie from places that sell books my backside
(33:40-34:08) Daria Rudnik
Yeah, excellent. And if people want to connect with you on your website, where shall they go to find out? Yeah, you can find me on dariarudin.com or I'm very open to connections on LinkedIn. I'm very active on LinkedIn. She'll just connect with me, send me a message, let's chat. I love having conversations and sharing my passions about building amazing teams. Excellent. Good. So that's it. So on LinkedIn, so dariarudin.com was that.
(34:08-34:31) Katie Allen
Yeah, excellent. So they can come along and find you and follow and hopefully and drop a note to say that you were listening to the podcast so that she knows who you are, not just some random creepy person trying to stalk her. So make yourself known. OK, grand. So so we know that you've got your methodology. We know that you're keeping things simple, but you're helping people to create better connections and have better conversations in their team. So we're talking all about teamwork here.
(34:31-35:01) Daria Rudnik
um what is one kind of top tip that you think that everybody should absolutely start doing straight away i'm not a fan of universal tips but there was one uh that i think is very helpful uh it's and especially especially important for remote and hybrid teams when you have kind of this kind of conversations when you don't have this human connection it's like every meeting start every meeting with some social connection
(35:02-35:12) Daria Rudnik
I know some people kind of tend to, okay, I'm doing my job. I want to focus on my job. I'm just straight to the point, which is fine. But building connection is part of your job.
(35:13-35:32) Daria Rudnik
Having good teamwork, having good relationships, knowing the person in front of you is part of your job. And if at some point you have a meeting and the person on the other side, you don't see all the small details you don't feel. If someone is sick or sad or tired,
(35:33-36:00) Daria Rudnik
You will not get as much from this conversation as you'd hoped for. So start building those relationships, start understanding people in front of you, and that will help you reach your work goals. So every meeting should start with some kind of social connection, one-to-one, team meeting, anything. Yeah. Take care of the other personal people, like actual human people. Yeah. Yeah.
(36:00-36:21) Katie Allen
Yeah. And it was interesting as you were saying that I was thinking, oh, I know that I have a lot of listeners who might absolutely hate the idea of having to do small talk. But actually what I'm hearing from you is it's not small talk for the sake of it. It's not just talking about the weather or doing going through the motions of that. It's about finding a genuine point of connection.
(36:22-36:39) Daria Rudnik
yeah it's the curiosity like you you really want to know this person you really like this person is amazing inside of you and you want to know them better yeah yeah so i guess every every every conversation trying to find one more thing that you can learn about them you didn't know before yeah
(36:40-37:01) Katie Allen
cool okay i really love that so daria rudnik you have already shared about your amazing book clicking which is available now on um i hate promoting amazon but we're going to do it promoting amazon and other book retailers or direct from daria on a website daria rudnik.com daria is there anything else that you came to say that you haven't had an opportunity to say
(37:04-37:34) Daria Rudnik
Well, I think since we started this conversation with kind of being a quiet person in the room and how to influence, I really want to say for anyone who feels that they haven't been given a chance to realize their full potential, you are in control. You can do things. You can change things. You don't expect anyone to come and save you because they won't be able to. I mean, they can't, even if they want. You go out and build those connections.
(37:34-38:00) Daria Rudnik
slowly step by step no need to rush no need to be like very loud with your own like knowing your values knowing your strength start building this um and you can do that and wait anyone to come and kind of do that for you oh i love this we're channeling some you are the master of your own destiny vibes um make it happen i love that so channel channel channel your own strengths
(38:01-38:20) Daria Rudnik
and make your connections. Thank you so much. Zaria Rudnick, thank you so much for joining me for this conversation on the Speaking of Inclusion podcast. Thank you, Katie. It's really enjoyable. And I think we talked about very different, important topics. And I hope that was helpful. Definitely. Thank you so much.
Welcome along my aspiring allies and thank you for joining me on this most recent episode of the Speaking of Inclusion podcast. Today I am joined by Daria Rudnick and Daria is a team architect and executive leadership coach and also also the author of the book Flicking which we talked all about in this episode.
(00:21-00:44) Katie Allen
Now, she is a former chief people officer and ex-Deloitte professional, and she's got many, many years of international executive experience. And having lived across several countries and working with clients across six continents, I couldn't wait to have a conversation with her to have her share with us some of her secrets about helping leaders across Fortune 500 companies and fast-growing startups
(00:44-01:04) Katie Allen
to really navigate conflict, change, crisis, and build high-performing teams in this rapid world of change and disruption. So she is an absolute specialist when it comes to this kind of organizational design and development and the ways in which we can communicate and connect with one another, hence her book, Flicking.
(01:04-01:15) Katie Allen
So you know the drill. Please sit back, relax and get comfortable in whichever way works best for you. And please welcome Daria Rudnick to the Speaking of Inclusion podcast.
(01:24-01:48) Katie Allen
So I wondered if that might be a cool place to start is like how, I guess, what took place in your life that kind of led you to a point where you were just like, quick, this is it. Well, I've been working for more than 15 years in corporate and there is different scenarios.
(01:49-02:13) Daria Rudnik
And there were times when I was working in a bank, it was 2008 and the operations were suspended. I mean, it was really crisis situations. I was working for startups, mergers and acquisitions. And what I've seen is when you have a team, people working together,
(02:14-02:38) Daria Rudnik
they can overcome things and they can learn from those things and then can make things even better. Like an example with the bank, when the operations were suspended and there was a financial crisis and we couldn't work, we were afraid to lose our clients, we were afraid to lose our best employees and we just started in the country. But we got together, focused on,
(02:39-02:53) Daria Rudnik
the team, like what unites us, what's the value, how we wanna work together to go through the situation, how we overcome this crisis, how we communicate with each other. Like we really focus on the inside rather than outside.
(02:53-03:19) Daria Rudnik
And like what happened, we actually, well, we solved all the issues with the authorities that they wanted us to solve. And we didn't lose a single employee during that time because we were so much united by the shared goal and connections and conversations and collaboration and working towards that goal. And it was really powerful experience that showed me, wow, that's what you can do when you have a team, when you have a really teamwork.
(03:20-03:48) Daria Rudnik
And like, I've also seen situations when it was time of mergers and acquisitions and it was like, the company was acquired because of its customer experience, like how they treated customers, the relationships they had with them. And they also had a very nice culture, but, and this culture kind of evolved because the CEO or the leader was like involved in building this culture, but it wasn't built intentionally.
(03:49-04:10) Daria Rudnik
And once things changed, like once there were more people on the team, when there was like the dynamic with the parent company and then the COVID hit and we all went three mode, it all just fell apart because there were no clarity. There were no rules of how we work together, no rules of how we communicate. Like the funny thing, like the executive team,
(04:10-04:40) Daria Rudnik
was the team that was either like between 15 and 30 people. And no one knew who was on the executive team. Because at some point, there were 15 people, at some point, there were five people, and at some point, there were all 30 of them. And okay, how do we make decisions? How do we collaborate? Who is responsible for what? There was no clarity. And eventually, the company just kind of dissolved in the parent organization. They didn't want to keep it as a single unit, despite of all the experience with customer success and everything.
(04:40-05:09) Daria Rudnik
So when you have a team and when you have the team that has clear purpose, that has linking connections when people interact with each other, when you have integrated work, when you know the work norms and rules, where you have collaborative decisions and knowledge sharing, where you learn together, that makes your team click and that makes it possible to overcome any crisis situations or any challenging goals that you have.
(05:10-05:36) Katie Allen
Yeah, I love that you kind of identified all of that through like the repetition of examples that throw up. And as you were saying that, what really kind of stood out to me was like, yeah, it is. It's during times of crisis. That is when you either have the opportunity to shine or when if there are any kind of cracks, I suppose to speak, in what might be going on. That is when they're really exposed, isn't it?
(05:36-06:00) Katie Allen
yeah yeah that's true i mean when everything's fine everyone is fine yeah or even when things when it's just undulating just a bit up and down um you get by don't you like things might go a bit wrong but you can cope people are all right it's good like you do you just bump along and it's it's when yeah it's when things really do go sideways that you you understand and i like that you use the word intentional
(06:00-06:23) Katie Allen
because that's something that I see a lot like some workplaces have really good culture but it's accidental and then like you say when things start to slide or go a bit wonky they don't know how to maintain it because they don't know what got them there in the first place or really what the the strengths were and then it comes apart so quickly so I love that you called out that intentionality piece as well
(06:24-06:44) Katie Allen
Yeah, really good. And yeah, and there were quite some considerable crisis then businesses have been to, isn't it? That 2008 financial crisis and then COVID. Like, they're pretty extreme examples for people to have navigated. I mean, there are global crisis like this, but there were local...
(06:44-07:10) Daria Rudnik
And not so much crisis, but challenging situations like M&A and setting up obviously another country or like organizational transformation. Like personally, it can be very exhausting to people worse than COVID at some point. So yeah, any situation like that actually shows what really stands behind the culture of the organization, what really drives it forward. And it can just drive you or it can destroy you.
(07:10-07:39) Katie Allen
yeah yeah and and that's your background isn't it so the hr and the organizational development you've got so you've seen it all when it comes to like transformations and and you're just like i have got a list of things that i have seen but you're but you're so right it's the it is the it's the people within organizations that are impacted when these things happen and if you don't have that intentionality then it's the people that suffer right
(07:40-07:48) Katie Allen
yeah yeah interesting so so that brought you to then to your to your click model which I really like because it's
(07:48-08:14) Katie Allen
it it not only does it kind of work in a oh yeah teams click but then you know you can remember it as an acronym and who doesn't love an acronym right so i liked when you were talking about the integrated work and you mentioned around like norms and rules so again that's that intention piece so how how can leaders listening to this kind of think oh actually what are what are the norms and rules that we've we would know what would be examples or signs of of that
(08:16-08:43) Daria Rudnik
And I love the question, because a lot of people talk about purpose, which is very important, but it's absolutely clear. Most people, most leaders know we need to have a purpose, we need to have kind of relationships, but okay, you need to have the what, and interest work is the how. So how you work together, how you make it happen. And a very simple example is I was working with a team as a consultant, and the CEO called and said, okay, we have...
(08:43-09:02) Daria Rudnik
Conflicts on the team, people just try to persuade and do things their own way. And when I joined the team and I saw that they all were very passionate about team mission and they wanted the company to succeed. I mean, they were united.
(09:02-09:22) Daria Rudnik
And they were moving towards sort of the shared purpose. What they were missing is how they're going to get there. Because some of their team members thought, okay, we need just better distribution channels. And now they thought we need better materials to produce our products. And some thought, okay, we need more sales. I mean, various different thoughts of what's more important.
(09:22-09:39) Daria Rudnik
So they didn't have this, how they want to, and they didn't have the how they make decisions. Because, like, how do we make decisions? We get together, we talk, and then the CEO decides something. So... Textbook, right, though, is it? The person with the most seniority gets to be the one that carries the cam. Yeah.
(09:39-10:02) Daria Rudnik
There were so many ways to make the decision, and he didn't want to be this controlling leader who makes all the decisions, but they didn't know how to make decisions together. So we got together and decided, okay, what is that that we want to support on our team? What is that we want to see more of? Like the sort of keep it up behaviors. The behaviors that when you see a problem, how about that? Talk about that, but don't blame anything.
(10:02-10:24) Daria Rudnik
So there was a list of keep it up behaviors, behaviors that you want to see more of on your team. And there were cut it out behaviors, behaviors that they didn't want to tolerate. And they didn't want to tolerate when someone is blaming others. They didn't want to tolerate when someone is sharing concern, but kind of doesn't think about the solution. So there was sort of two lists, list of keep it up behaviors and cut it out behaviors.
(10:24-10:52) Daria Rudnik
And then eventually, well, they came to the, like they started working together, they started to collaborate through kind of those small exercises of how they want to do things, how they want to have their meetings, how they want to make decisions, like all those things. The interesting thing happened about six months after this engagement when CEO called me and said, hey, you know what? We're getting really, we're letting go the chief of sales.
(10:53-11:18) Daria Rudnik
OK, why? And he said the team decided that she's not part of the team anymore. Because why? Because she constantly shows some of the cut it out behaviors and she's not compliant with the keep it up behaviors. We decided that that's how we want to work together. And she's not doing that. And we decided as a team that she's not going to be part of our team.
(11:19-11:40) Daria Rudnik
And he said, yeah, okay. He didn't make this decision. He didn't force them to do anything. He didn't say anything. They, as a team, were able to identify how they want to work together and keep it and kind of stay true to that. So that's a great example of how this integrated work works.
(11:40-12:06) Katie Allen
I love that. That's a really good example. And then it enables you to have a difficult conversation because you've already pre-agreed. These are the ways in which we will work and we can provide you with evidence and demonstrate. We've said we're not going to do these things and you're doing these things. So it's a really clear, concise, intentional way of saying, here's how we work together and we can have difficult conversations when it doesn't happen.
(12:08-12:32) Katie Allen
Yeah, love it. Great framework. I really like that. And then how does that kind of move into when, you know, you talk about this, that moves into the collaborative decisions, right? But how does that also then support, because again, I know that you're really passionate about influencing as an introvert, right? So how does that support that to make sure that all voices get to be part of that collaboration?
(12:33-12:53) Daria Rudnik
Well, that's a great thing. And it's also related to different cultures. How do you, because some cultures are more hierarchical than others. Some cultures are more collaborative than others. Well, the thing is, we're talking about the team dynamics. We're not talking about in general how people need to behave. So when a team, you get together and you decide it together.
(12:53-13:08) Daria Rudnik
What decisions do you want to make as a team collaboratively? What decisions are important? What decisions do you say? Okay, the leader is making those decisions. And what is the process of making those decisions? Should we as a team get together, show some ideas?
(13:08-13:36) Daria Rudnik
share some ideas and then bring our best options to the team leader so that they decide it? Or should we all like with the leader get together and talk? So you get together with the team and you agree how you want to make decisions. What works for your organization? What works for your team? What works for your culture? And what works for every single person on the team? Because some people will like would want to share something in writing. Some people would want to speak it up.
(13:37-13:48) Daria Rudnik
just listen to how everyone is saying things and agree, okay, that's how we make decisions. Like that's our framework. And it will be unique for every team.
(13:49-14:14) Katie Allen
so I find that really interesting because because that's the key thing isn't it right teams are in essence made up of individual human people with their own preferences so and I in my head I'm thinking about teams that I've been in in the past and it may not surprise you but I'm a chatty Cathy and I am some I do all my thinking out loud usually annoyingly to other people who maybe don't appreciate that
(14:14-14:21) Katie Allen
So I have to vocalize things and sort of visualize it in front of me. So I'm really, you know, gesticulating with my hands as well.
(14:21-14:49) Katie Allen
And then I know as well that I've been in team environments with someone who is also a vocal expresser. However, our styles are really different in that I'm quite fast paced. When I'm going, my brain's like a roller coaster. We don't know where it's going to go. And he's much more slow paced and thoughtful and considerate, which for me is a challenge because I'm racing through thinking I've got to the point already that he's going to make, which may or may not be correct.
(14:49-14:54) Katie Allen
And then if we're also on a team with someone who likes to go away and think about things,
(14:54-15:23) Katie Allen
and wants to take some time out of this busy environment of talking so that they can process quietly and then come back. How do we bring all those together? Because I can imagine by the time that person's come back with their thinking, I've rolled off, I'm like 30 steps ahead and not really thinking about any of that anymore. And the other person in the middle still, they're still narrating their story to arrive at a point. So how do we make sure that all of those needs can be met?
(15:27-15:55) Daria Rudnik
In our current workplace environment, we're overusing synchronous communication. If you want to fit everyone into the same timeframe, it could be a challenge. It doesn't have to be that way. I mean, you can brainstorm asynchronously. You can share your ideas, think it at your own pace with some other people, without other people, whatever you like, and then get together to finalize the decision.
(15:56-16:17) Daria Rudnik
So again, sometimes most of the meetings, when we get to the meeting, we don't know, okay, what's expected for us? Are we here to ideate? Are we here to make a decision? Are we here to analyze? Are we here just to connect? So what is the energy I'm bringing to this conversation? So once I have an opportunity to think,
(16:17-16:28) Daria Rudnik
beforehand. Once I know what the type of input and energy is expected from me during this meeting, it becomes much more easier to kind of synchronize our efforts.
(16:29-16:56) Katie Allen
I love that as an answer, actually, because that makes a whole lot of sense in about if you break down or what I'm hearing here is breaking down the like the decision making process into its elements and being really clear about which element we're at. So even if I'm chatty, chatty, far, far, I don't get to rush to decision. I stay in the section that we're in until we've said, OK, this is the thinking space. And now we've done the thinking. We can move on to sharing that with each other.
(16:57-17:08) Katie Allen
And then we can look at playing it back and then we can look at decision-making and it keeps everybody on track as to where they are. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. And it doesn't have to be all at the same time, all in the same room. Yeah.
(17:08-17:34) Katie Allen
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I love that you called it out to start with. Actually, we do fall into this. You called it, was it synchronous communication where we think everything has to happen all in the same moment, whereas actually, and I guess sometimes that might be necessary, but actually more often than not, it probably doesn't need to happen that way. Yeah. Yeah. Especially in the more settings. Yeah. Yeah. And how...
(17:35-17:57) Katie Allen
how can leaders kind of introduce that as a thing because I can imagine people will be listening to this going oh yeah that's really interesting actually we just assume we put a meeting in and we're supposed to get to an outcome at the end of an hour because that's what blocks for us like how they could shake it up right so what what things could they do to shake it up and start to introduce that as a different theme for their team
(17:58-18:28) Daria Rudnik
Well, first of all, again, be very clear on if we talk about meetings, like what is that the main goal of your meeting? Like what is that you want to achieve within this meeting? Do you want to share ideas? Do you want to kind of make a decision? Because you have all the information. And if you don't have all the information, make sure that people are ready when they join the team. So they have information before joining the meeting that you can make a decision. So what is the main purpose? And I mean, it's obvious everyone knows that, but no one does that. There's no meeting without agenda.
(18:29-18:35) Katie Allen
Right. And I love that you said that because we all know it and no one does it.
(18:37-19:00) Katie Allen
Absolutely. Yeah. And actually, that's a really it's a really pertinent point when we think about the different ways in which we process information. If we've got an agenda, there will be those people like me who probably won't read it, probably won't follow it. But that's OK, because there'll be other people in that space that will make sure that we do. And then there'll be people like me who will happily toe the line when we're reminded that we're sticking to the agenda.
(19:00-19:15) Katie Allen
But for other people where that's really important to know, well, what are we doing and how are we following this? And I'm thinking when we talk about all the different types of neurodivergence that exist, all of the ways in which we process information,
(19:16-19:32) Katie Allen
giving in giving all of the information that is required so if i am someone that wants the full picture i get to piece that together and if i'm someone is like me who's like unlikely to read those things it doesn't matter like i don't lose anything i've still been given the opportunity to whether i take it or not is fine
(19:33-19:58) Daria Rudnik
And again, agendas is kind of a small rule of how we expect it to show up at this meeting. And like you said, if someone is showing up differently, we'll gently remind them, hey, here's the agenda. We're not talking about this topic yet. We're talking about that topic. And we can kind of back it up. Yeah, absolutely. And it's okay to remind people of that as well, because I often observe...
(19:58-20:07) Katie Allen
know there are those people who whether it's a power dynamic or whether it's just a personality can derail
(20:08-20:30) Katie Allen
the what's the word the like the progress or the the process within a meeting by just having their own thoughts and opinions and jumping to different points so it is also about knowing and and managing those people to say that we're not there yet like you say to pull people back kindly but firmly when it's required
(20:32-21:02) Daria Rudnik
It is also a trust issue, of course, like you said, like when there is trust on the team. So it kind of, you're building trust on your team and you build trust by following up the rules that you all agreed on. So whenever people like feel and know that we have rules, everyone follows those rules. Even if you're a leader, if you want the most senior person on the team, but you still follow the same rules, it creates trust and it's easier for everyone to call out, like to call those people and say, Hey, like not now, not here.
(21:03-21:24) Katie Allen
yeah yeah and and and in what ways can we help people kind of find their voice when it comes you know if they are perhaps one of the more introverted or quieter voices in a room full of you know bolder louder voices what what things can people do to kind of ensure they get to participate
(21:26-21:47) Daria Rudnik
Well, it's kind of, again, two ways to, obviously, like, organizations and teams need to be mindful and aware that there are different people. We need to make sure everyone's voice is heard and, like, especially later, seeing if everyone speaks up but someone is not, making sure they have, like, they have their say if they want to, if they're ready to.
(21:48-22:06) Daria Rudnik
Like, however, like if you, if no one's doing that for you, it doesn't mean that you just do nothing. There are lots of different opportunities to speak up and share your ideas and get support. It doesn't have to, again, it doesn't have to be at this meeting. Like when you are invited to a meeting, you know, the topic.
(22:06-22:36) Daria Rudnik
And you can reach out to the organizer and say, hey, I see we're talking about this. That's what I'm thinking. That's what I want to contribute. Is it something that would help you during this meeting? Is it something that you want to hear during this meeting? What do you think? Reaching out to the organizer, to some of the decision makers who's going to be on that team and sharing your ideas with them before the event so that you have some support. And when there was a meeting and everyone, many people know that you have something to say. And when you start to speak,
(22:36-22:46) Daria Rudnik
they'll be sharing the stage with you because they knew you have to say something. You prepared and they supported what you say. So you instantly have support.
(22:48-23:17) Daria Rudnik
Even if you didn't have the chance to talk before the meeting and you didn't have the chance to talk during the meeting, there was always a chance to talk after the meeting. When you can follow up on people and sharing, hey, thanks for leading this conversation. Here are some additional thoughts or here are some additional information or here is the question that I have after a meeting. Keep this conversation going. Again, it doesn't have to be during this meeting. It can be before the meeting, during the meeting, and after the meeting.
(23:17-23:36) Katie Allen
yeah yeah i love that because actually you know when a meeting room virtual or in reality when the meeting door closes it doesn't mean that all conversation stops does it absolutely yeah okay i really like that thank you for sharing that and what i liked as well in there is like leading um with
(23:36-23:58) Katie Allen
And I guess this comes back to the norms and rules that you spoke about that had to be agreed in advance, like normalising, adding in. Does anyone else have anything to add? You know, is there anything that we missed here? Has everybody shared what they wanted to share before we move on just to create those opportunities that if someone is kind of still mulling a thought,
(23:58-24:24) Katie Allen
they can choose whether or not they want to share it at that point, or maybe they can say, I'm having a thought, but I'll probably share it afterwards once I've thought about it a bit more, just laying the groundworks. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That makes a lot of sense. Thank you. I was interested, and I don't want to kind of play into stereotypes here as well, but as I was hearing that, I was thinking, I recall myself
(24:24-24:33) Katie Allen
historically having been in many meetings where I get interrupted and spoken over and I know that can be something that um
(24:35-24:59) Katie Allen
Again, if you're if you're creating those rules and norms that should be addressed. Right. But sometimes it still happens. And I've noticed more often than not, it's women that get spoken over and interrupted a little bit more. So what are the things that we can do to maybe address or or I guess counteract some of those other other experiences that some groups have that other groups don't?
(25:02-25:30) Daria Rudnik
Well, it's not an easy question. I don't have a solution, to be honest. It's either you... You can't solve the patriarchy in one question. Sorry, Dario. It's either you find the strength to say, hey, just I'll finish. Let me finish, please. Just calm. I know, I mean, it's very hard to say calm. But that's the most important thing.
(25:30-25:54) Daria Rudnik
uh or again you just build relationships with these people earn their respect i know it's it might sound not fair i mean why should i when someone doesn't have to do that they just go at birth for me it depends on like what do you want to achieve if you want to reach your goals okay you do that you do anything you can to reach your goals
(25:54-26:11) Daria Rudnik
And eventually, with conversations like this, with podcasts like yours, people hear that we need to give space. We need to be mindful about different voices. We need to be aware of our biases. Things will change. So again, it goes both ways.
(26:11-26:41) Katie Allen
Yeah, yeah. And I think it's and it certainly is changing. I think people are becoming aware. And again, like I said, I don't want to play into the stereotype because it's not necessarily gendered, but it frequently is gendered. So while while that is the case, we should probably call that out. But I like that. Yeah, there is two sides to this, isn't there? Which is standing firm for yourself when I guess when you feel psychologically safe enough to do so. And that's a that's another section of this, isn't it?
(26:41-26:56) Katie Allen
um and also paying attention to what's going on in the meeting space outside of your own thoughts and feelings right what's happening for other people and how can you interject when it feels like it might be required yeah
(26:57-27:14) Katie Allen
yeah okay cool um so i know um you mentioned as well a little bit earlier on around uh when you're kind of bringing teams together and creating those norms because actually that helps reduce conflict and i know that you yourself have kind of spoken about conflict and
(27:14-27:44) Katie Allen
and helping teams navigate conflict but you kind of have your own personal experiences that you can kind of draw on from a societal perspective of having seen conflict i haven't used so tell us tell us a little bit about that give give my give the listeners and viewers just a little bit of an insight as to like who you are and how have you arrived where we've arrived at well uh i'm originally again my background is in hr but i'm originally from moscow russia and i moved to israel three and a half years ago so yeah i've seen conflict
(27:44-28:10) Katie Allen
yeah yeah and obviously i don't want to you know don't please don't don't feel like you have to talk about anything that you know you're not comfortable talking about but um i can imagine there are i guess parallel skills that you learn just navigating life um that can come obviously hopefully not in the same way in a in a like a boardroom or a leadership position but there are there are skills i guess in diplomacy and uh
(28:10-28:20) Katie Allen
handling yourself so how how does that kind of shape who you are and how you handle these things do you know i don't i'm
(28:21-28:41) Daria Rudnik
I don't like conflict. And like, if we talk about personality types, I'm a kind of a conflict avoid, I'm avoiding conflict, which is not a kind of something I'm proud of. And I kind of was trying to work like on myself, like overcome that. But eventually I, I came to the conclusion that it's not like that. I don't like conflict. I don't like conflict.
(28:41-29:10) Daria Rudnik
being aggressive. I don't like young people are aggressive towards me. I don't like to be aggressive towards other people. And conflict itself is not a bad thing. How it's handled and how it becomes hurtful and kind of hurting individuals or hurting people. When conflicts are hurting individuals and people, that's a bad thing. But when it's conflict, because we think we see the world in a different way, it's okay. I mean, I...
(29:10-29:24) Daria Rudnik
I have talked to a lot of people who disagree with me in terms of current conflict situations. But we can have respectful conversations, curious to learn other person's perspective.
(29:24-29:43) Daria Rudnik
So that's, for me, is the most critical thing is how to be in the conflict while still being human and respecting the other side. And I'm not going to talk about, I don't know how to solve the world conflicts, but I do know how to solve organizational conflicts. So when you are in organizational conflict,
(29:44-30:13) Katie Allen
Be curious about other person's opinion and try to understand them. When you try to understand them, well, they hopefully become curious in your opinion, trying to understand you. And that's when you can find some mutual solution. Yeah, totally. And I love, and thank you for sharing that. And I love what you were saying there about actually, like conflict isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's just the highlighting of some of a different set of beliefs or different perspectives or different experiences. And yeah,
(30:14-30:34) Katie Allen
I guess, in a leadership context, it's very difficult to find the absolute right and wrong in any of that. It's just perspectives. And as you say, being curious to lean into that and to just understand where the other person is coming from. And it doesn't mean that you have to agree with them.
(30:34-31:03) Katie Allen
Like, it doesn't mean, you know, you don't have to go in trying to convince each other that you're right or wrong. It's just about understanding, isn't it? To go, well, how do we move beyond where the current conflict is? Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I think that's really helpful to just highlight that actually everyone's human and we're human at work as much as we're human at home. And having those conversations is so important.
(31:04-31:26) Katie Allen
um just going back then to you because i know that we talked about your your click uh method at the start and i know you've quite candidly written a book on this as well for people that want to know more yeah there you go there we go properly good clicking tell it so tell so tell us about like how did that become the book um and i guess why should people buy it because that's what we're that's what we want people to do right
(31:27-31:57) Daria Rudnik
I really wanted to do... Well, there are multiple reasons why I wrote the book. One of them is that's how I structure my thoughts. I've tried this and that and I've tried different tools and exercises. How do I structure it the way that I know it? I can explain it and people can use it. Whether with my help or without my help. Even since the time when I was Chief People Officer, my main goal and mission was to
(31:58-32:18) Daria Rudnik
create more happy and fulfilled workplaces because people deserve to be happy at work. I love my work at St. Pines and I want people to be happy at work and we can do that and we can create those kind of spaces when there was a great teamwork, amazing culture and leaders who actually try to do that.
(32:18-32:45) Daria Rudnik
So, and the book is part of this mission. When you can get the book, you read the book, there are tools that you can try and use. And even by doing those, keep it up and counter our behaviors, or even by doing a team charter or any other tool that's in the book, it'll move your team towards having meaningful conversations, better connections with each other. So tools themselves are not that important as the conversations you're having while creating those tools. So, like,
(32:47-33:13) Katie Allen
I forgot the question. I know, it's cool. But just to be a part of it, because I think you've made a really pertinent point there, which is that you can give anybody any manner of tools. You can give me a spade for my garden, but if I don't go out and use it, and this is what I'm saying, you are going to help provide the frameworks and the tools, but you've got to go and have the conversations. You've got to implement them and put them into practice and use it for good if you're going to change anything, right?
(33:14-33:40) Katie Allen
yeah yeah so um so how if if people kind of are curious to know more about the book where can they get it from well the book is is it's available on amazon on like major retailers um so it's pretty much everywhere that was that's a good question where can people get your book you like from places that sell books katie from places that sell books my backside
(33:40-34:08) Daria Rudnik
Yeah, excellent. And if people want to connect with you on your website, where shall they go to find out? Yeah, you can find me on dariarudin.com or I'm very open to connections on LinkedIn. I'm very active on LinkedIn. She'll just connect with me, send me a message, let's chat. I love having conversations and sharing my passions about building amazing teams. Excellent. Good. So that's it. So on LinkedIn, so dariarudin.com was that.
(34:08-34:31) Katie Allen
Yeah, excellent. So they can come along and find you and follow and hopefully and drop a note to say that you were listening to the podcast so that she knows who you are, not just some random creepy person trying to stalk her. So make yourself known. OK, grand. So so we know that you've got your methodology. We know that you're keeping things simple, but you're helping people to create better connections and have better conversations in their team. So we're talking all about teamwork here.
(34:31-35:01) Daria Rudnik
um what is one kind of top tip that you think that everybody should absolutely start doing straight away i'm not a fan of universal tips but there was one uh that i think is very helpful uh it's and especially especially important for remote and hybrid teams when you have kind of this kind of conversations when you don't have this human connection it's like every meeting start every meeting with some social connection
(35:02-35:12) Daria Rudnik
I know some people kind of tend to, okay, I'm doing my job. I want to focus on my job. I'm just straight to the point, which is fine. But building connection is part of your job.
(35:13-35:32) Daria Rudnik
Having good teamwork, having good relationships, knowing the person in front of you is part of your job. And if at some point you have a meeting and the person on the other side, you don't see all the small details you don't feel. If someone is sick or sad or tired,
(35:33-36:00) Daria Rudnik
You will not get as much from this conversation as you'd hoped for. So start building those relationships, start understanding people in front of you, and that will help you reach your work goals. So every meeting should start with some kind of social connection, one-to-one, team meeting, anything. Yeah. Take care of the other personal people, like actual human people. Yeah. Yeah.
(36:00-36:21) Katie Allen
Yeah. And it was interesting as you were saying that I was thinking, oh, I know that I have a lot of listeners who might absolutely hate the idea of having to do small talk. But actually what I'm hearing from you is it's not small talk for the sake of it. It's not just talking about the weather or doing going through the motions of that. It's about finding a genuine point of connection.
(36:22-36:39) Daria Rudnik
yeah it's the curiosity like you you really want to know this person you really like this person is amazing inside of you and you want to know them better yeah yeah so i guess every every every conversation trying to find one more thing that you can learn about them you didn't know before yeah
(36:40-37:01) Katie Allen
cool okay i really love that so daria rudnik you have already shared about your amazing book clicking which is available now on um i hate promoting amazon but we're going to do it promoting amazon and other book retailers or direct from daria on a website daria rudnik.com daria is there anything else that you came to say that you haven't had an opportunity to say
(37:04-37:34) Daria Rudnik
Well, I think since we started this conversation with kind of being a quiet person in the room and how to influence, I really want to say for anyone who feels that they haven't been given a chance to realize their full potential, you are in control. You can do things. You can change things. You don't expect anyone to come and save you because they won't be able to. I mean, they can't, even if they want. You go out and build those connections.
(37:34-38:00) Daria Rudnik
slowly step by step no need to rush no need to be like very loud with your own like knowing your values knowing your strength start building this um and you can do that and wait anyone to come and kind of do that for you oh i love this we're channeling some you are the master of your own destiny vibes um make it happen i love that so channel channel channel your own strengths
(38:01-38:20) Daria Rudnik
and make your connections. Thank you so much. Zaria Rudnick, thank you so much for joining me for this conversation on the Speaking of Inclusion podcast. Thank you, Katie. It's really enjoyable. And I think we talked about very different, important topics. And I hope that was helpful. Definitely. Thank you so much.