Daria Rudnik (00:03.466)
Welcome to Built by People Leaders. I'm your host, Daria Rudnik, and this show is for HR and L&D leaders, those building real impact from within and shaping AI ready organizations. Each episode, I sit down with people leaders to talk about how they build strong cultures and shape organizations around them. It's about HR being seen as a true business partner by leaders and by HR themselves. So let's dive in. Because today I have a very interesting guest, Mike Lynch.

Mike is an executive leadership advisor who draws on more than 30 years of HR leadership experience to provide a practical roadmap for leaders to move from awareness to action. Through his Ally to All-in framework, Lynch demonstrates why inclusion is a leadership competency that strengthens team, improves culture, and drives better business outcomes. Welcome, Mike.

Mike Lynch (00:57.671)
Hey, thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm excited about this conversation.

Daria Rudnik (01:01.074)
me too, I have so many questions for you. But my first question I know you published recently published a book, and this book is about inclusion. What it's like to publish a book about inclusion, which is now a kind of a controversial topic in two thousand twenty six.

Mike Lynch (01:17.023)
Sure. great question and a great place to start I think, in this conversation. So yeah, I, you know, I started working on this book or working on the idea behind this book. really it was sort of something that was ruminating in my mind after sort of I would call the reckoning back in twenty twenty, that was happening in the US with you know, you know, the Me Too movement, Black Lives Matter, you know, those

events that were going on in the US. And so a lot of the work was around, hey, how do, you know, how do I encourage other leaders that look like me? And for those of you that are not watching a video but listening to this, you know, I would describe myself as a middle-aged gray-haired white man. So, and you know, really what what was kind of happening there was I was seeing and and finding

That many leaders that look like me were really struggling in this conversation. And so that's that was the premise behind the book and where the book came from with this. And so then fast forward as I started to ⁓ put this together and start to put the framework together and then start to write the book. And then, ⁓ it an election happened here in the US and there was a lot of kind of controversy, or or there was some controversy, or what, you know, was deemed a lot as the the DEI backlash happening in the US where ⁓ various executive orders were coming out around pulling out DEI from many companies or public ex in the US, anything that was government funded. so I I'm not gonna lie, Daria, it was it was a challenge. and there was many discussions with you know, pub the publisher around sort of is now the right time to do this, is you know, should we wait and should we hold? I really felt like it was important to continue to do so, to continue to kind of put this book and idea out there because it's really not

In my mind, we it it's not specifically about DEI. I I think it is aligned to a lot of the principles around DEI, but it really is about inclusive leadership. And you know, I strongly believe that you know inclusive leadership is is a competency for leaders as opposed to a set of programs you know, potentially offered through you know an HR department or a DEI department, an organization. So

Mike Lynch (03:41.491)
While it's been tough, in some ways, I'm glad to that we kind of move forward with with the publishing of the book. And it's continued to spark a lot of conversations, especially again, with leaders out there around how to continue to push this agenda forward while you know also making sure that we're doing it in a responsible way and in that way as well.

Daria Rudnik (04:10.509)
Mm.

Mike Lynch (04:11.262)
So that's that's the reason I I push for it.

Daria Rudnik (04:13.653)
Well, yeah, well, thanks Mike. And it's really it's not about the the policy or kind of something that you have budgets for. It's it's about in including talking to people, include like being able to include everyone in the work process because it's global work. We have people from different cultures, we have people from different backgrounds, we have people from different like abilities sitting in front of screen. We don't know, but like making sure that

We hear people other people, we make sure they feel connected, they feel appreciated, that we build this culture of connection and belonging is important in any times. So I'm I'm very gl I'm gl I'm very glad you published this book. But tell us a little bit about your like professional journey. You've been like thirty years in HR. That's that's a huge experience. Well tell us about that.

Mike Lynch (04:49.46)
Sure.

Mike Lynch (04:52.948)
Sure.

Yeah, thank you.

Mike Lynch (05:05.266)
Yeah, so you know, I've spent most of my career I would say you know, kind of at that intersection of people and leadership and business performance there. So, you know, I did spend you know, 25 years at Capital One, which is a you know, financial institution in the US, as well as, you know, have some international presence as well. And, you know, I was really fortunate to work for such a great company.

And to have a lot of different experiences. So whether it was HR business partnering, I spent some time in the international kind of space was based out of the UK for a number of years, worked in diversity and inclusion, and working really closely with senior executives there. And, you know, what kept me, I think, in HR for that long is realizing that fairly, fairly early that almost every business challenge eventually becomes

a people or leadership challenge that's there. And so you can have the right strategy on paper. but you know, if leaders aren't aligned, it doesn't, if they don't trust one another and they don't have the right talent or the culture that reinforces that reinforces the wrong behaviors, you know, that strategy isn't going very far. And so, you know, it's really important to make sure that you're you know, constantly sort of thinking about sort of the talent you have on the team and sort of how the leadership is

motivating and incentivizing that talent. So, and then I would say today through my consulting work, I get to see from even broader perspective. you know, and I I work with different leaders and organizations at very different stages of growth and transformation. And you know, what I, kind of what I find fascinating is you know, the questions that we that I kind of have with these leaders around, you know, do you have the right leaders?

Are we really clear about where we're going and are you know, people working together effectively? And you know, I think as importantly, which I don't think we talk about enough, is are the systems helping us get there or are they getting in the way? And, you know, that's really kind of what has helped me sort of stay in this space for such a long time. and it's really, you know, I it's really the people agenda is never should never really be separate from the business agenda. And so keeping those

Mike Lynch (07:26.046)
kind of really aligned, I think is important.

Daria Rudnik (07:28.415)
Yeah, I mean sure. People are actually fulfilling this business agenda. Like you you cannot separate the two, that's for sure. You mentioned like you've been in the in one company and you've definitely seen different stages of its growth and now you work with different companies at different stages. What HR leaders need to know about how to about yeah, how what's the best for different stages? What's the difference? How

Can they best perform s at different stages of organizational growth?

Mike Lynch (08:01.81)
I think, you know, I the thing that I really encourage HR leaders for is is really really understand sort of how they can be a strategic partner with the business. So I think that's really important. And it's probably you know, a lot times we sort of hear HR leaders sort of talk about the fact of

hey, ⁓ I like I want to be become, part of the business and things like that. really what I would encourage other HR leaders is don't really focus is being seen as a strategic partner, ⁓ focus on being one. So, really understand how you know, how the business works. I think there's a lot of times that we spend too much energy asking, like, like how do I get a seat at the table? And, you know,

My my view is bring something valuable to the table. So understand how the company ⁓ makes money, understand the customers, know what's keeping the CEO and the business leaders awake at night. and then, you know, connect the people issues or people agenda to those issues and really understand how that works. you know, and I think sometimes, right, like we pride ourselves in the HR field around being being really excellent executors, which I think is super important.

'Cause execution matters, you know, people n people need to get paid, they need to have their benefits work, they you know, and those those people processes really have to work. But, you know, that in my mind is just really c just the table stakes. And, you know, I think what I would just encourage HR leaders to do is really think about sort of where is the business going, what's keeping us from getting there? You know, do we have the right leadership and the capabilities of organization and the culture that we really need? And

you know, and and really bring some insight judgment and sometimes you know, constructive challenge. Cause I think we do we do offer a unique perspective to the business that that's there. So I would I would definitely sort of lean into those spaces.

Daria Rudnik (10:05.557)
I have a not very easy question for you. I mean, it was my challenge when I was like chief people officer in in companies. And it's like let's say, well, I I I kind of try to understand the business and I see and I want to bring this topic of inclusion or kind of inclusive leadership because I know it's important business outcomes delivered by people. We need to make sure our leaders act in a certain way. And when I go and bring that to my CEO, they say, okay, it's not part of agenda anymore. I mean, just forget about it.

And that can be about inclusion or that can be about something else. When a startup founder says, We're not at that stage. Let's not do about. So how do you actually have this conversation when you know like we need to do that? Because that'll bring real value to the organization, to the people working there. But they just say it's not the agenda or we're not at this stage or not now.

Mike Lynch (10:40.894)
Mm.

Mike Lynch (10:57.556)
Sure. I I well I think in particular where you know, I'll talk about inclusion because that's sort of the the place where I spend most of my time, right? I think like that it's really getting like I we talked about sort of at the very beginning this conversation, it's really not about necessarily these these programs and things that we kind of can offer and put together. Cause again, I think we as HR are really good at that and sort of putting together sort of the, you know, the training curriculum and the programs and things like that.

I think it's really about how do you think about inclusion as a leadership, a core leadership competency. And I think if you can talk to your counterparts or your leaders and other parts of the business, and really getting them to understand that that inclusion piece is an important part of like how we should be doing work, right? Like everyone wants to.

people don't go go to work and thinking hey, I don't want to hear the best ⁓ opinions in the room or the voices in the room and things like that. To me, I think that everyone's like, yeah, we definitely want to do that. But the it the challenge is how do you seek those out? How do you make sure that you're surrounding yourself with the right voices that can sort of get to the best answer you know, for the business, for the customers. and so

I would say it's probably reframing probably the the thing around inclusion where it's not necessarily about these programs and trainings. It's more around sort of like leadership competency and how do you build that skill set within our leaders.

Daria Rudnik (12:27.861)
Mm-hmm. Okay. Well, I do agree that kind of business leaders they don't always like hearing about the the programs again and the policies, but when you talk about okay, what kind of leaders do you want to see? They kind of get this language. They they they do pick it up and and talk about the leaders they want to see on their teams. But before we go to those who really want that and how to do that, I still have a question.

Daria Rudnik (12:54.102)
okay, hold on a second.

Daria Rudnik (13:01.759)
W yeah. And the question is, is it like really important? Because what we do need we we do know we need we need product market fit. We need strong sales. We need people working on a product and like actually reaching out like reaching their fulfilling their OKRs, KPIs, metrics, everything.

Do we and we don't have time for inclusion. Like why why do we need why is it important to to actually talk about it and build this leadership capability?

Mike Lynch (13:35.443)
Yeah. so let's, you know, let's sort of put aside kind of the the DI like for a minute, like right, or inclusion for a minute. So what I would just sort of say to the to you know the CEO as well as other members of the C suite or even sort of management teams is if is ask the questions about, hey, do we want better decisions? Do we want to challenge assumptions before the the customer or market does it for you?

you know do we want to access the best talent? do we want people raising risks early instead of staying silent? you know do we want innovation you know and then when you you know you need to create this environment where different sort of perspectives can actually influence the outcome so you know and what I would say right like diversity without this that inclusion doesn't get you very far

I think having different people in the room doesn't matter if everyone learns the challenge learns that challenging the dominant view carries a penalty, right, in this thing too. But if you kind of go back to those questions of like, you know, that if you're not sort of ha setting the environment where you're asking the right questions, like that there's a danger that you're creating in sort of the of everyone sort of thinking the same or sort of getting to the same outcome. and it it

And you know, and the danger is like, hey, if everyone starts thinking alike or learns to act the way they do, that they do and sort of act the same, right? You're not sort of driving sort of that those places where the business I think needs to go. So I would I would not couch it in, like I said, the DEI and inclusion right away, but sort of like, hey, how do we get to the best outcome and the best answers? which I find like if you couch it in that way, people really do sort of like, yeah, like I want all of those things that you're asking about.

Daria Rudnik (15:34.356)
I I I really like how you connected like better decisions and kind of diversity of thinking, innovation with inclusion, because you cannot have all that if those people don't like if people don't feel there's no trust, there is no connection, there's no belonging, I mean they feel isolated. They will not bring you can get all those people in the room, but you will not get anything from them until you have that culture of inclusion and belonging and kind of psychological safety.

Mike Lynch (15:58.057)
Yeah. Yeah. And in the other thing too, Daria, let me just sort of on the flip side of that, right? If we sort of say like where I think let's the flip side of this is cr sort of creating sort of this silence or you're sort of incur like w whether you like it or not, you might be encouraging this silence, right? And then and silence doesn't necessarily mean that the issue has disappeared.

or that peoples people are still noticing what's happening. They're still having experiences. They're just deciding whether it's safe to talk about them or not. And so, you know, I think when people stop telling leaders those those difficult truths, you know, leaders can make the mistake that like, hey, the silence is agreement, right? And I think that's dangerous and that goes well beyond inclusion. I think, you know, it really affects sort of the ethics, the risk, innovation,

customer issues, it it affects everything there. So, I I think you know, to me, you know, silence isn't evidence of alignment. Really it's evidence that people have stopped believing that speaking up will will even matter. So

Daria Rudnik (17:05.741)
I mean, if you don't talk about problems, it doesn't have you many. It doesn't mean that you don't have any problems. Yeah. Okay. So what about those leaders who like really want to make a difference, who really want to be kind of create this inclusive culture? But it is a very sensitive topic. And people, many people, like people I coach, myself included, it's kind of scary to step

Mike Lynch (17:11.014)
E exactly. Exactly.

Daria Rudnik (17:32.979)
out of this comfort business like conversation into this more sensitive zone where you can actually make a mistake and hurt someone. How do you do that?

Mike Lynch (17:43.14)
Work.

Yeah, I think first of all, it's a great question because I think this is a real thing, right? I think there's a there can be a sense of real fear. And interestingly enough, when I started doing this work and really sort of the the genesis of sort of some of the the work I was doing in the in building sort of the the ally to all in model was really around starting to ask

my peers, right? Again, who look like me around like, hey, what's happening? What I was noticing a lot was we would we'd be in these conversations around business strategy or around the next product launch or around the budget or whatever it was. And like leaders are really kind of leaning in. And you can imagine too, like if we we can also remember back when we all were in the the Zoom squares I call them, right? And we're all sort of lined up there.

And what I started to notice was like you would have leaders who we would get to this topic on the agenda where we wanted to talk about sort of, you know, diversity or inclusion or sort of the next thing we're doing. And they would literally, Daria, get smaller. So they would sort of sit back and in the screen they would get smaller. And I just got super curious about the fact of of like where like what's happening. And so I would start to ask my peers, like what what's happening in that moment? Like, where are you going in in there? And I think the

The response that I was getting was really about hey, like I'm afraid, like I'm afraid I'm gonna say the wrong thing. It's not my fight to fight. you know, there's places where you know, I think well, I guess my point being is like it was coming from a place of fear. And so the surprising part was like, hey, even these leaders who kind of lean in and sort of can jump into a bunch of these conversations just didn't have the right tools

Mike Lynch (19:40.127)
to kind of have the right kinds of conversations in this space. and so that was really the genesis of like, hey, how do we start to build out sort of where tools are with this? and so I, you know, really would say like, hey, this is a place where you've got to just become start to become aware of sort of what what's sort of driving some of the behavior or not behaving or sort of sitting back.

And really just kind of leaning into that courage that you kind of have there. Because again, going back to some of the things we talked about already, like these are really important skills to bring to the to the conversation and to bring to a business. And so I think we we really need to get to the place of of curiosity and awareness of like how you're showing up in those conversations.

Daria Rudnik (20:27.981)
And again, those conversations they they carry a the real risk. Someone might say might feel offended and you'll be well, we've seen examples of people being cancelled for something that said wrong. And so and that's probably why some leaders pr prefer not to talk about it at all rather than say something wrong and then see the consequences of those.

Mike Lynch (20:53.054)
Sure. And I would say, okay, so I think it is a really good point. And I think again, I'd go back to go back to this idea of sort of fear, but I also as leaders, like how it shows up. I think you know, your silence is also speaking really loudly in this. And so, you know, it can show up as like, like the this particular leader doesn't care about this topic or, you know, think things like that when it the the

opposite could be very much like they very much care about this. They want to make sure they get it right. And a lot of times that I weren't when I work with leaders, it's just listen the expectation isn't that you get this right all the time, but it's that you put yourself out there and enough to engage in the conversation. So you have a responsibility to continue to engage in these conversations. And you know your you know your the your behavior here is is sort of what people are watching. So people cannot

gauge your intent, right? Like you can have all the best intentions in the world, but it's really not about your intent. It's really about the impact that you're having with that too. So this is a place where I just encourage like, hey, like be be brave, be courageous, sort of start the conversation. It's okay to start a conversation with like, hey, I kind of this feels a little uncomfortable to me, but I want to kind of ask and and ask about this particular topic or how does this particular subject kind of show up for you.

in that. I think that's a responsibility of our leaders today.

Daria Rudnik (22:27.085)
Well I do agree that like curiosity and courage are like very important not just leadership and people skills. Like we need to be curious to learn and we need to be courageous to step into the zones that are unknown.

Mike Lynch (22:40.786)
Yeah, absolutely.

Daria Rudnik (22:42.219)
But how is there a way to help actually leaders like be better and develop this leadership competence? I know you have a framework and I don't know if that's something that could help them.

Mike Lynch (22:53.906)
Yeah, I do. yeah, I mean, so you know, the framework, the framework it's it's like a five stages of a framework. I'm not gonna go through every single bit of them there. but but what I would sort of say is like, hey, let's start with the first couple. The first one is really around awareness. So start to pay attention, right, to things around you. So this is kind of goes back and which is sort of a theme that you sort of hear me talk about is sort of this notion of curiosity and courage, right? But start to understand like

And paying attention to who's speaking up in meetings, who is being interrupted, who is getting stretch assignments, who is you know, getting the visibility. And you know, start to start to notice and pay attention to those kinds of things that are sort of around you, like take yourself out of that a little bit and just create awareness around that. and then from there, I think there's just there's a there's an important part of of this, which is really around just acknowledging, like acknowledging, hey, I'm starting to notice

a little bit of ⁓ what this is going on. So it starts to bring you into the conversation about that. So so I think you know, two of the steps in in the framework is one is one is about awareness. Like that's really sort of the first step there. And the second one is really around that acknowledgement piece. So start to acknowledge sort of what you're noticing, what you're paying attention to of like, hey, I often sort of notice that you know, I tend to interrupt the women on the team.

⁓ or, things like that, which goes a a long way. And then you're kinda asking for someone to help create some accountability for you in future conversations about this too. So and I I would encourage people to just try it. It's actually not as scary as it seems.

Daria Rudnik (24:37.367)
yeah, awareness is is not a scare a scary step at all. you just start and observe. and you and you yeah, be curious and learn from what you see. You don't have to do anything at that step stage yet. But once you see something that can be changed, then you have enough information to actually make the move. Yeah.

Mike Lynch (24:56.498)
Yeah, agre agreed. And I think, you know, and I and I do think around sort of starting to create some accountability for your own impact there. So, you know, you can often ask, and a lot of times often ask someone else on your team or in the meetings that you're going to or one of your peers of, hey, help this is something I've noticed. I tend to interrupt. and can you help hold me accountable for for this and sort of give me some feedback, you know, whether real time in the meeting or

or after the meeting. And one thing I will caution too though is when I always especially when I work with other white men about this, is don't automatically just go to the woman or person of color in the meeting about this. Like really it is you know, go go, you know, seek out another, you know, fellow white man and sort of say, like, hey, this is something I'm working on. Can you help me or hold me accountable to this as we kind of go? So with this too. So

And again, try it. It's not hard. And you'll be amazed, I think, about the results of that.

Daria Rudnik (25:55.682)
Yeah. Well that that's very important conversation. And I I I'm glad you we bring it up here. And ⁓ one of the final questions I have for you is about I mean, obviously AI. AI is entering the workplace. AI is influencing lots of things, including things how we communicate, how we work together, how we collaborate. And I'm curious to learn like do you see anything of that. is it is there any effect on how we see an approach inclusion?

Mike Lynch (26:24.776)
Yeah, I would say, yeah, I mean, right, AI is here. It's staying. I mean, by the way, I also think, you know, a lot of times, you know, it's a lot about like, like people seem to be a little bit scared of the tool, but it's a really powerful tool that we have, right? And I'm kind of a big believer in sort of embracing it here. So I, you know, I do think, the AI is going to force HR to answer some much bigger questions

about the workforce more much more of like then how can we just use i AI and HR, right? I think there's there's reason for that. So I but I think the bigger question is really like, hey, how is work changing? And you know, what capabilities are going to matter? What are what work should humans continue to do? You know, how do jobs get redesigned? You know, and I think there's an enormous, which maybe is under sort of leveraged, an an enormous sort of change management component to this.

And the thing is, as we know, like we are we are all learning this real time alongside of one another on this. And so I think there's an important aspect of this to make sure that we're doing our due diligence, HR, to stay on top of this and sort of do it there, but also having some grace and humility and sort of saying, like, hey, I need help in figuring this out. and you know, it's your employees, right, are gonna experience everything from excitement to anxiety about this.

And you know, some will see it as an opportunity, some will someone wonders as a threat. and I think at the end of the day though, I think the a this the AI actually makes the human side of leadership more important, not less important, right? So there's absolutely the judgment, curiosity, trust, empathy, coaching, you know, that ability to bring different perspectives together are all still gonna be there and they're gonna

I think become even more and more important and valuable to to the organization. So, ⁓ I just I don't think HR's future is simply in becoming more you know, technologically sophisticated. I think it's helping organizations really figure out how technology and that human capability come together to create the value here.

Daria Rudnik (28:21.866)
Yeah. Yeah, that's

Daria Rudnik (28:38.689)
I do agree like with AI, human skills, communication skills, organizational understanding organizations becoming more and more important. You cannot implement AI without redesigning work processes, without making sure people still collaborate and and use their brains to make decisions. And these are all these are all HR HR skill set and HR functions can help with that. Well, that was really great conversation, Mike. is there anything I haven't asked you but you think it's important to share with our audience?

Mike Lynch (29:08.818)
Yeah, I think the thing that I would encourage, i especially if I kind of come back to this notion of inclusion, is, you know, really I mean we touched on this, but I think it's probably important to kind of emphasize is it's okay to not have all the answers, right? It's okay. I mean, in in you know, I s sort of say this all the time. You know, I spend my days sort of thinking about this topic. I've

written a book on this topic. I've you know, have conversations like this all the time on this. I still get it wrong. and so I think it is a matter of like there's you can you can't wait until you have sort of all the answers to it to engage in this conversation, right? I think you need to kind of put yourself out there, be vulnerable, be willing to sort of have some of those conversations that may feel awkward and uncomfortable at first. but I believe me and I

in this, like it will pay off in dividends just in your willingness to kind of put yourself out there and have these conversations. and I think I think you'll be amazed sort of of on what you sort of see on the other side of this.

Daria Rudnik (30:20.033)
Yeah, yeah, I agree. I mean, when we have a strong team and this culture, when people like being together, when people like to contribute and kind of sharing different perspectives, that's that's really rewarding experience, both personally but also in terms of business outcomes. Well, thank you so much, Mike. With we talked about like how important it is for leaders to be courageous and curious and and the kind of first steps leaders can take to be more

a contention about how they approach, how they build this inclusive culture, awareness and acknowledgement. And it's okay to ask for help. Ask people for help. They will help you and keep you accountable. How people can find you? How can they find your book? Read your book.

Mike Lynch (30:58.707)
Yes.

Mike Lynch (31:02.388)
Sure. so a couple of different places. So you can link you can connect with me on LinkedIn. So my I'm under Mike Lynch is in my in my LinkedIn profile. So I would love for people to connect there. You can also connect on my linksite on my website, which is www.mjlconsultinggroup.com. group dot com. one thing I will sort of tell you or tell your listeners is there's actually a a a

an assessment, a free assessment that someone can go out and take. It's pretty quick, but it's it it it's a tool where if you're curious about where you are in the spectrum of inclusion from an inclusive leadership perspective, it's quick and easy. It takes ⁓ less than five minutes, but it gives you some a gauge of sort of where like where you are in your inclusive leadership journey, as well as some practical tips to kind of take away after you kind of get your results from that as well.

so that's a that's a resource that's out there. And you know, can get my book from Ally to All-in In anywhere where you buy books. So, you know, bookstores, Amazon, also through my website as well, if if that's what what you want as well.

Daria Rudnik (32:09.709)
Cool. Okay, we have all the links in the notes to this episode. Thank you for watching till the end. Please give if you like this episode, please give us five stars on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Subscribe to our YouTube channel and stay tuned for the next episodes. Bye.

Mike Lynch (32:25.373)
Bye, thank you.