Daria Rudnik (00:02.39)
Welcome to Built by People Leaders. I'm your host, Daria Rudnik, and this show is for HR and L&D leaders in fast-growing companies and scale-ups, those building real impact from within and shaping AI ready organizations. Each episode, I sit down with people leaders to talk about how they build strong cultures and shape organizations around them. It's about HR being seen as a true business partner by leaders and by HR themselves. So let's dive in.

Because today we're gonna we're gonna have a very interesting conversation. It's the first time I have two guests on my show, and I'm so excited to talk about how companies can actually enter the US market. So today I have two guests. Jolene Risch is a she's a founder and CEO of Risch Results, a boutique executive search from she started in 2007 to help organizations build world-class teams through intentional leadership and people strategy. And Shira Hovav serves as Israel country manager based in Tel Aviv, leading the firm's work helping Israeli companies hire the right talent as they establish and scale in the US. Welcome.

Shira Hovav (01:10.96)
Thank you.

Jolene Risch (01:11.097)
Thank you, Daria.

Daria Rudnik (01:13.346)
Well, thanks for joining me. We have such a gl really global international team right now, based in different locations, US and Israel. So before I ask you to introduce yourself, I really want to ask you a question. Like, what do what do HR leaders or founders get wrong about entering the US market?

Jolene Risch (01:39.0)
I think I think at least from the perspective of Israelis, well really from anywhere, I think HR leaders are going to start thinking about what do we need to do from the from their own perspective. right? So if we're thinking about hiring, typically they're thinking, okay, we're gonna do it like we've always done it in Israel. And hiring in Israel

looks very different than hiring in the US, right? yeah, it looks very different. And I didn't even realize that until I started learning about how hiring is often done in Israel. You know, like, I served in in this IDF unit with with you know, my friend, he's great. Let's hire him, right? So obviously in the US it's it's the process is quite different. It's a much larger country.

Daria Rudnik (02:10.185)
really?

Jolene Risch (02:35.907)
What I always tell HR leaders is the right leader the right person you're looking for is there. Just the process of finding them is going to be different.

Daria Rudnik (02:48.087)
Mm-hmm.

Shira Hovav (02:48.186)
Yeah. In a smaller country like Israel, and I guess we're speaking from from the angle of Israel, but I'm sure there are other countries as well that are like this, where if you have a very particular profile you're looking for, just through your own network, because the community is so small, the distance between people is so so tiny that you can find the person you're looking for pretty closely. But in the US, there's just so many people and they're all all over the country. There's also

so many companies that most people have never heard of. So they might it could a mistake that I often see is looking for the biggest names. That could be university, it could be the company. but there's many other excellent companies and excellent talent that are a little bit more hidden that requires a like a method to actually go out and find those people and then we'll talk about it later in the pod. But

how to actually attract them to the opportunity.

Daria Rudnik (03:49.91)
Yeah, I love that. I love I mean, I I I came from Russia to Israel and I was like also kind of surprised. Okay, what? You basically you look at your network, okay, who do I know who knows someone who might be a good fit? But when you have so many people, when you have lots of companies, obviously that that's that's another process.

Jolene Risch (04:08.687)
And it's it's not to say that's not a way to start by looking at your immediate network even in the US, but honestly what we always tell our clients is let's look beyond your network because we're gonna have a much better selection of people.

Daria Rudnik (04:26.894)
Well Jolene tell us about yourself and about your journey and how you started this business. How actually well started to doing this bridging Israeli companies and US market, US talent.

Jolene Risch (04:39.779)
Well, this is the I mean, that's probably the what I'm most passionate about. so I've been in the people industry for over twenty five years. I started in consulting at Ernst <unk> Young. I was in there, what they called then their people advantage practice. And from there, I left at one point about six or seven years later, left and started doing some of my own consulting very quickly that morphed into how do I find the right talent?

So I started Risch Results almost 20 years ago. And it was a time in the U United States when we had pretty high unemployment. So sure, there were lots of people available. But the question is, how do I find the right one? At that time, all these people are applying, but are they the right person for my company? And so that was sort of the the entrance for me for recruiting. Fast forward

about two years ago, my middle son moved to Israel. And like any great mom, I was trying to think of ways to be able to see my son as much as possible. And in the process, started talking to a lot of people in Israel, in business, in the tech community, and started learning about the challenges that companies have when they are scaling in the US. And of course, the challenge that I understand the most

Is a challenge of finding the right people in the US. And so what we learned was that often, like we said before, they go about it very similarly to how they were doing it in Israel, right? And sure, maybe the first person wasn't quite right. But I knew that I can help these companies find the right talent from the start. The first one is going to be the right one.

And and that's ⁓ how it how it came about. December of twenty-four, I was coming to Israel. I asked Shira to help me plan a trip. Let's talk to as many leaders and investors and trusted advisors as possible so we can do as much learning. Let's do a small event so we can really get out into the community. And that's really how it all started. And then hired Shira in

Jolene Risch (07:04.355)
January of this year and I think I I think I did the wrong year. So it was tw December of twenty five, right, when we had the event. And then January of twenty sixth is when I hired Shira and we officially launched Risch Results Israel.

Daria Rudnik (07:24.339)
Nice cool. Well, Shira tell us about your journey. I know you have very diverse experience. Why recruitment? Why are you doing this?

Shira Hovav (07:33.337)
Yeah, it no, it's a great question. so as you as you can hear by my accent, I'm American. I was born and raised in the US. and after I graduated from university, as soon as I could, I came to Israel, I moved here. I was working in innovation consulting, spent some time also at Tel Aviv University, growing Cyber Week, AI Week, and building Defense Tech Week. So I've always been in the world of innovation, working with startups. I love

Solving problems and growing. And Jolene, when Jolene reached out to me, it was an opportunity to almost build a sort of startup branch of her successful firm in the US. and it's been such an incredible opportunity meeting amazing people, developing partnerships, because first of all, I think that those relationships are so important. But another learning is that these startups need so much more support than just

one element of the picture. It's not really just about recruiting. They need the infrastructure, they need go-to-market strategy. They it's really all-encompassing. So it's important that we can sort of build this system that supports them through our different partnerships and relationships for us and also for our partners. We're we're all kind of building an environment of support to successfully scale in the US. So

It's it happens to be this happens to be the method to support this the Israeli startup ecosystem. but I think there's so much potential.

Daria Rudnik (09:11.512)
I mean I love your kind of mission basically, yeah, to to help companies go global. Because when you move to US, you you then move to the bigger markets, bigger other countries. and that's a great goal. That's that's a great mission. But I have a question for you. Like I mean, I wanna hire someone in the US. I publish a like job description on LinkedIn. People apply. I mean, people want to work.

They apply, I interview them, I hire the best one. What's the big deal?

Jolene Risch (09:44.432)
So the best one won't be applying. The best person for your job most likely will not be applying to your post. So I would say the strongest performers are are are most likely working if you're working in a market that's that's that's very busy and taking off. right? So sure.

Daria Rudnik (09:50.156)
What

Jolene Risch (10:13.447)
unemp ⁓ to back up, unemployment in the US overall is about four point two percent. right? So there are definitely people available, but often it's a mismatch of who's available and what you need at that time. right? And to be able to find the best person, you can't rely on posting. I call it the post and pray method. Post and pray that the right person responds.

Daria Rudnik (10:37.474)
Yeah.

Jolene Risch (10:41.133)
So it's really about how are you going to find that right person if they're not going to see your post on LinkedIn or Indeed or or web whatever. And then it's a matter of well, where are they? And why would they want to talk to me? And that's the process that that we use to find the best talent. Start with where are they right now? Are they at your competitors?

Are they in an adjacent industry? And how are we going to get their attention? You know, they're busy working. What is it that we're going to do to attract them to want to talk to us about this amazing opportunity?

Daria Rudnik (11:22.968)
Well speaking of companies I can look for candidates. I mean let's say I want to sell something to a company, why why wouldn't I just hire someone from that? 'Cause they have connections, they know those people, I hire someone from that, my target customer, and have business with them.

Shira Hovav (11:43.773)
I think it's a great question. And I think it sometimes can be a trap. there's definitely so much value in having a champion inside the organization that you're trying to sell to. But first of all, if that person has left, now they're no longer inside. But more importantly, let's say this is a salesperson. If they were a salesperson at your target customer's company, they were probably selling to a completely different customer. They weren't selling to themselves, right?

Maybe they were in a internal sales. But if this is the the the the method, then they probably don't have actually the right experience. They may not know the the process that goes on when you're an external stakeholder now trying to sell into that company. So I would rather look at a company who has successfully sold into that target customer rather than trying to pull from them.

Daria Rudnik (12:39.544)
Mm-hmm. That's interesting.

Jolene Risch (12:41.197)
And then and let me just add, I think the other part is remember this is a startup, a brand new market. We also want to find someone who's been able to build that piece, right? So this is a brand new company, doesn't have a name brand, nobody knows about the company. So we also need to find someone who has that experience, not someone who's gone in, been handed a Rolodeck, so to speak, right? And started from there.

They're really you know, starting from from scratch with a blank slate.

Daria Rudnik (13:13.678)
So like you said, like when you join when the company joins the US market, no one knows you. No one knows what you do. Maybe no one knows you even it it is real in the any other country because you're just a startup. How do you make people come? How do you like how do you in like how do you make them come?

Jolene Risch (13:35.898)
Are you are you asking in terms of hiring, how do we get people's attention? Yeah, I mean, I think that's that's a great question. And even companies that are well known are asking that question, right? Because everyone is competing for the best talent. So the first question is well, what are people looking for? Why would they want to make a change in the first place? And I'll tell you this that my recruiting team, I have an amazing recruiting team.

Daria Rudnik (13:39.573)
Yes, yes, yes.

Jolene Risch (14:05.731)
They talk to a lot of candidates. And there are a few things that many candidates have in common when our recruiters ask the question, what might it take for you to make a change? And one one thing that they hear a lot are opportunities for growth. right? So can you imagine a new company coming in, often a new technology, right? New product, new service, you know, new software. I mean, there is

Absolutely room for growth. And that's very exciting to the right person. So opportunities for growth and development as a person and also as a professional, that is something that our team hears all the time. And then it's about being competitive from a compensation and benefits perspective. right? And obviously it works differently in the United States than in Israel, the especially the benefit piece. But

I think it's really important to remember that you could have, the the holy grail of products. right? But to get somebody to leave where they are, and they're probably doing great because that's why you wanted to speak with them in the first place, for them to leave for another opportunity, we have to make it attractive. right? They're paying their mortgage every month, they have their bills, we can't go from you know,

one compensation package to another that you know it just isn't gonna it isn't gonna support them. right so that's the other part we need to be able to create a compensation package that is going to be attractive to them and yes often the right person is attractive to a growing company where maybe there's opportunities to be, you know, to get a piece of the pie, sure.

Daria Rudnik (15:44.431)
Mm-hmm.

Jolene Risch (16:04.857)
But again, remember, you know, if they're going from a very comfortable setting to another setting, they still need to pay their bills.

Daria Rudnik (16:14.381)
Yeah. Well you're right, because like when I talk to HR who's we're thinking about launching offices in other countries, and obviously the first thing what HR do is find out the compensation level. What are the benefits, what people will be expecting. So that okay, here is our opportunities for growth. There's a great mission, amazing product. Okay, how much do I how much do I get? Like so that's that's obviously kinda the the baseline.

Jolene Risch (16:40.068)
Right.

Yeah. And one of the challenges is that the US is so big that if we're looking at candidates in New York, compensation is obviously going to be different than candidates in the middle of Kentucky or Iowa or you know, even you know, Louisiana wherever they're gonna be differences. And so that's also something else to consider is, you know, who are you hiring?

Daria Rudnik (16:43.727)
Four people.

Jolene Risch (17:12.629)
Where are they? Because the cost of living is dramatically different.

Daria Rudnik (17:17.603)
Mm-hmm. Well, sure, you mentioned that it's it's not only about recruitment. Because when you are entering a new market, when you are launching a new office, you basically are launching a new business at two point. What else is there? What else HR leaders need to have in mind when they go into another country?

Shira Hovav (17:39.867)
Yeah. I think that it's so important, especially if there's a big time difference, is how are you going to set up that team for success? And specifically in American culture, we're very process oriented. Every every action, every every goal that you have, there's a way to achieve it. Now in startups, it's a little bit different. Even in the US, like

The mentality of startups is definitely go, go, go, iterating, being creative, problem solving, a little bit of ambiguity. But for example, in the Israeli startup ecosystem, it's all of that on steroids. So now when you have an eight to ten hour time difference, and your, let's say, SDR in America can't just call up their manager or the founder and say, Should I do this? Should I write it like that? First of all, the f the people that you're trying to find need to be able to operate

in a certain level of autonomy, but you also need to create the system in order for them to be successful. So there's a lot of work that needs to happen beforehand before you can go and then hire people to work full-time to it to achieve certain objectives with literally no roadmap. And I understand that there's a desire to find people who can build the playbook, let's say, but I think that

The in order to be truly successful, there has to be a little bit of structure.

Daria Rudnik (19:12.271)
Of course they can build the b the playbook that they like and they will be operating with. They can do that, but will it be the playbook that you want as a founder, you want as a as a chief people officer in this company? So obviously you need to be some

Shira Hovav (19:22.128)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, and that's that's a process. It's a it's a journey to get there. There's a lot of iteration, a lot of learning when you're entering a new market. So and for Israeli culture, the lack of patience and wanting results really fast and working really, really hard, which does lead to results because there's just this intensity of we're going to be successful, we're going to make it. in the US, generally things just take more time. Sales cycles are longer. so patience I think is

Daria Rudnik (19:37.603)
Mm-hmm.

Shira Hovav (19:55.098)
Also key.

Daria Rudnik (19:56.397)
No structure and patience.

Shira Hovav (19:58.045)
Not not the words that Israelis want to hear, but

Daria Rudnik (20:02.255)
Yeah, yeah. and speaking of yeah, yeah.

Jolene Risch (20:05.463)
I would also add, ⁓ part really part of that in terms of the playbook is a very clear definition of what success looks like. What would you expect from this candidate in 30 days, 60 days, 90 days? I think that needs to be defined before you go out and start hiring. Because honestly, n understanding what success looks like is going to help you find the right person

And also probably even more importantly, it's gonna help you onboard that person. right? So really having a clear definition of success.

Daria Rudnik (20:44.975)
I do agree to your point. Like I when I was in HR startup, I was I remember there were situations when we were hiring for some role, going through some candidates, like iterating with the product, and then we realized, okay, we need a different person. And we and we changed. And kind of this process actually helped us define the role.

And then after that, we were able to create it in KPIs and kind of the plans and everything. But kind of we we had to go through this probably research phase of what's out there in the market, what are the best practices to help us define the the ideal role and ideal candidate.

Jolene Risch (21:20.419)
Yeah.

Jolene Risch (21:27.311)
So the ideal role and deal, ideal candidate, that front end, because I totally know what you're talking about. And as a recruiting partner, we need to be able to go through that with you. right? Once you really truly understand what it is you're looking for, and it can change, absolutely. Over the time that you're looking for the right person, you're gonna be talking to people. And yes, your definition might change. I mean, this actually just happened with an Israeli tech

Daria Rudnik (21:39.747)
Mm-hmm.

Jolene Risch (21:56.73)
person a tech company here in the US, we started with we're looking for this role in this location. And it changed about halfway through to a different role and a different location. And that can happen. But when you decide, okay, this is actually what we need, before onboarding the person, before the person starts, be really clear on what is success for that person going to look like.

You know, thirty, sixty, ninety days, etcetera.

Daria Rudnik (22:27.406)
Yeah.

Yeah, for sure. And we we had a actually one of the episodes on the show we had talking about n the first ninety days and how important it is to set up like people for success and how important is to have those conversations and just not throwing them into the field of just go figure it out yourself, you're a grown up person. Just yeah.

Jolene Risch (22:37.01)
so important.

Jolene Risch (22:44.302)
Yes.

Jolene Risch (22:48.831)
Absolutely. I think I think that is such a key to the engagement, number one, and then retention, which is, you know, just as important to focus on as recruiting.

Daria Rudnik (23:02.969)
Mm-hmm. So I have a very kind of natural question about the cultural fit. How do you build a team that lives on two sides of the ocean and communicates with eight, nine, ten hours difference? How do you build a real team like that?

Shira Hovav (23:24.57)
Yeah. I think that question is why so many companies entering the US, whether it's Israeli or any other country, maybe look for their own. So people who come from the same country, who have the same cultural background, it doesn't necessarily mean that they're the right people for the job, but there is comfort from the culture end. But you don't have to do that. That is one way. And it could be part of the criteria in your search. But there are plenty, like the US is massive again, we have to

Reiterate that. There's also so many cultures. It's such a melting pot. There are people of all different backgrounds. You also have second or third generation people who they do have that cultural awareness. They may have elements of culture that are aligned with you. And culture is also not just where you grew up. You have your national culture of where you grew up, then you have your maybe also your religious culture. And then coming further close,

You have your company culture, then you have the personality of the team and of the leadership. So all of that has to be considered. It's not kind it's not a one size fits all, like, you're from Japan, I'm from Japan, therefore we're going to make a great team. That's not necessarily the case. so specifically to your question about having a a huge divide between let

specifically Israel in the US and how do you build a strong team? there has to be infrastructure there to facilitate team bonding and also communication. The communication is everything. and there's different ways to do that. Jolene maybe you can talk a little bit more about your perspective on that because

That's it's very true that someone can maybe feel disconnected, lost, especially if they're the first hire, there's no office, it's just them, maybe another person located in a different city. It it's definitely a challenge.

Jolene Risch (25:28.823)
Yeah, in some ways, Shira, you ⁓ went through that with our team, right? Yeah. And I think I think you're right from from like the opposite. But I think you're right. I think communication is is is the key. we use a platform at Risch Results called EOS, the entrepreneurial operating system. And there's actually a couple of people in Israel who work with companies using

Shira Hovav (25:33.308)
True.

Jolene Risch (25:58.702)
the entrepreneurial operating system, totally recommend them for your show. What I would say is there's a lot of tools built in that can help any kind of company. But I would say that some of the tools can be really helpful when you're dealing with ⁓ people in, across the ocean, including what we call the L ten or the leadership meeting, right? So I do that.

with the entire team. right? Every every week. And that of course includes Shira. But because we're building a new market, Shira and I also have an L ten. So that communication piece and a real structured type of meeting to make sure we're getting through everything, that every issue, that's that's very important.

Daria Rudnik (26:51.085)
Yeah.

Shira Hovav (26:51.258)
And also on the the culture piece, ⁓ the the people who are going to succeed in a company that is headquartered overseas, that maybe there's no office, they're working remotely, it takes a specific kind of person. so that also needs to be taken into consideration. Maybe they've worked in that kind of environment in the past. kind of like Jolene what you were saying earlier, you take someone from a massive corporation, pull them into a startup for the very first time.

Jolene Risch (27:12.089)
Yeah.

Shira Hovav (27:21.198)
I mean, they'll be lost. They they're used to having a lot of paperwork, a lot of procedures, someone to ask, how do we do XYZ? a very, very strict and big long playbook. And to all of a sudden not have anything can be very daunting. So maybe they're not the right person, or they could maybe join a team that's a little bit more mature, like a few more people, and then they can be onboarded and a little bit more in in kind of

taken care of in that way. But otherwise it it needs to be someone who can who can succeed in that advantage.

Jolene Risch (27:55.588)
Yeah, I agree. And it's and and it's important in the recruiting process, in the interview process, to assess for that. Will I mean, 'cause you can look at a resume and it can say startup, but do they really have what it takes to work in your startup? And that's why the interview process is so critical.

Daria Rudnik (28:04.313)
Mm-hmm.

Daria Rudnik (28:17.431)
Yeah. And I love what you're saying, but like when you start up, you're what I don't know, two people, three people, ten, fifty, like okay, one hundred. One hundred is not that many people. You can learn your people, you can know your people, you can know them like as a personality, not kind of labeling them as Israeli or from Japan or from India or for someone else. But kind of getting to know people and providing clarity in what's expected. These are our processes. That's how we

Work here. That's what we do. Here is what you can decide for yourself. Here is what we decide together. Creating this clarity structure is something that helps people stay on board and perform from like earlier. Because we want us, we want them to perform early, as early as possible. I know you have a story. I know you have a story about the first Israeli startup that wanted to go to the US. Do you want to share it?

Shira Hovav (29:17.498)
Yeah, I think Jolene started to share a little bit before about the search we did that started in in one not just in a different city, in a completely different state. and then ended up being a different role in another state. so maybe Jolene, you can share a little bit more about that process.

Daria Rudnik (29:23.503)
Mm.

Jolene Risch (29:34.924)
Yeah, and and you know, it doesn't only happen with with startups. And I think that's why it's so important to be with a recruiting team that you have a good relationship with the recruiter and there's consistent communication. In this case, it started in one city, like I said, actually Dallas.

And the the job was quite different than what they realized they truly really needed at this point, right? So the job changed. And it's about working with them to help them define what's needed and also really define the perfect person. And in this case, they absolutely wanted somebody who had startup experience. Must have. That was on our must have list.

And nice to have was also someone who had experience with Israeli startups. And look, I mean, thankfully the the Israeli tech ecosystem is is quite large. right? And very successful. And a lot of companies have have, you know, made it over here and and built. And so we were able to find someone who actually already had experience working in an Israeli startup.

Daria Rudnik (30:40.025)
Yeah.

Jolene Risch (30:56.835)
But I'm telling you, the absolute key was those meetings with our our client, consistent meetings. Here's what we're seeing in the market. Here's what people are saying. right? Here's how they're responding to the opportunity, to the comp package, everything. Because we're the our team, we're the window for for you. right? For this, for the company. We're the window into the labor market.

And we're gonna say, here's what we're seeing when we talk to people. So what we work with a company called Labor IQ, actually a a US startup, and that's our compensation database that we use to find compensation based on ⁓ almost any job description you can think of, but also we're able to look up based on location and education and years of experience and

What does the market look like. right? So that's super important, but also we are boots on the ground talking to people. That's a whole nother element. Here's what people are saying.

Daria Rudnik (32:05.507)
I mean there's so important to have a reliable partner somewhere out there because when you go into a new com new country, I mean you know nothing, you know no one. Kind of having someone who can help you with compensations, understanding like the the culture, understanding the market is so critical.

I have my fine my final question probably is what's the role of HR like CHR or chief people officer when companies go into a new country and opening office in another country?

Shira Hovav (32:44.284)
It's a great question. And I I think that Jolene is more is positioned better to answer this because I myself have I'm new to the HR industry specifically. so I'll defer to Jolene for this one.

Jolene Risch (32:44.483)
You were missing.

Jolene Risch (32:58.179)
What is the role of the chief people officer or the CHRO when an organization is making that leap? And I think their role is the translator. right? I think their role is helping the founder understand here are the cultural differences. We I want you to understand when you know, this professional in the US is saying

X, Y, or Z, here's what they mean. It's also the role of the chief people officer, the head of HR, to be able to find the resources that are going to help their team. And not just from a recruiting perspective. They are going to have to find ⁓ what is the best method of the payroll? Do we need to find a payroll company to help bridge the gap? Who what about

An organization that can help translate for both teams. right? The team in the US and the team in Israel, some of the cultural differences. we actually work with a company that does just that. They work with teams that are going into another culture. US is one, but they work with many to help those teams prepare for those cultural differences. So they're almost like a translator, but they're also going to be a huge support

for the new talent, the new professionals on the other side of the ocean. Okay. Again, back to communication. What is it that you need? What can I do to be to help you be more successful? What are your goals and how can I help you get there? And they are the ones basically translating that to the founder because the founder needs to focus on the huge whole picture, right?

including the product and the service and everything. But HR needs to focus on the people. How can we keep the people working well, being productive? And look, I mean, retention is important. If people are not feeling supported, they will leave and it's very expensive.

Daria Rudnik (35:16.772)
Well, thanks so much for sharing all this. There's so much valuable information for any company, any HR leader who wants to support companies going to the other to other countries. What I kind of want to stress out a little bit is that what you said about that US is different. It's it's it's so different. And because we outside of the US we think, okay, it's one country, it's all the same. And it's not.

So it is really important to understand different states, different cultural like differences between states, industries, and again having a reliable partner is is critical. Thank you so much for being here. How people can find you, how can reach out to you if they wanna talk to you, get your services.

Jolene Risch (36:07.311)
Well, first of all, Daria, I want to say thank you so much for having Shira and I on your podcast. You have an incredible podcast, and really you're you're providing such an amazing service to get information out there. So thank you for inviting us. It was such a great experience. We appreciate it. so in terms of getting in touch with us, well, our website is rischresults.com. We have an Israel page. Honestly, in Israel

Goes straight to Shira Hovav.

Shira Hovav (36:40.636)
Yeah.

Daria Rudnik (36:41.807)
Well, thanks so much. We have all the links in the notes of this episode. thank you for l for being with us till the end. If you like this episode, please give us five stars on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Subscribe to our YouTube channel and stay tuned for the next episodes. Bye.