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Ralph Kellogg is Chief Human Resources Officer at Lutheran Family Services, TEDx speaker, and author of Leading While Human: Notes I Wish Someone Had Given Me. He brings 20+ years of executive leadership experience and publicly disclosed his anxiety disorder and panic disorder diagnosis in his 2022 TED talk. In this episode, Ralph Kellogg introduces the ACT model — Acknowledged, Compassionate Accountability and Transparency — a framework he created during the pandemic to equip managers with a structured approach to mental health conversations.
For people leaders at 100–1,500 employee companies, this episode addresses a critical scaleup challenge: informal manager-employee relationships that worked at 50 people break down as headcount grows. Ralph Kellogg explains how to train managers to build trust before crisis moments, how to avoid the stigma trap of pulling assignments away, and why curiosity — not fixing — is the leadership discipline that scales. He also shares the operational case for relationship-building: Gallup data shows 70% of people leave organizations because of their relationship with their manager, and replacing a high performer costs more than investing in the manager's relational capacity.
For people leaders at 100–1,500 employee companies, this episode addresses a critical scaleup challenge: informal manager-employee relationships that worked at 50 people break down as headcount grows. Ralph Kellogg explains how to train managers to build trust before crisis moments, how to avoid the stigma trap of pulling assignments away, and why curiosity — not fixing — is the leadership discipline that scales. He also shares the operational case for relationship-building: Gallup data shows 70% of people leave organizations because of their relationship with their manager, and replacing a high performer costs more than investing in the manager's relational capacity.
Challenges Addressed
- Managers don't know how to start mental health conversations without triggering defensiveness or stigma: Ralph Kellogg explains that the relationship must be built before the crisis moment — if the only interactions are corrective feedback, the employee will assume judgment. He outlines the ACT model (Acknowledged, Compassionate Accountability and Transparency) as a repeatable framework managers can use to check in, offer support, and follow up without making it transactional.
- Scaleup leaders claim they don't have time for relationship-building with their teams: Ralph Kellogg's response: "Do you have time to replace that person?" He recommends bringing in someone — an internal hire or external consultant — who is skilled at connecting with the team, so the founder or technical leader can focus on what they do best while the team still gets relational support.
- HR doesn't know how to train managers on mental health at scale without turning it into compliance theater: Ralph Kellogg argues that HR's job is to build trust with managers first, then equip managers to build trust with their teams. Relationships start on day one of onboarding, not in the moment of crisis. Training should focus on small, consistent behaviors — checking in, following up on commitments, staying curious — not one-time workshops.
Actionable Takeaways
- Use the ACT model for mental health check-ins: Ralph Kellogg's framework is Acknowledged, Compassionate Accountability and Transparency. When a manager observes a change in an employee's behavior, they should frame the conversation with concern ("I see this — are you okay?"), ask how they can support rather than immediately pulling assignments away, and follow up in one to two weeks to show the conversation wasn't transactional.
- Build the relationship before the crisis: Ralph Kellogg emphasizes that managers must have consistent, low-stakes interactions with employees starting on day one. If the first real conversation happens during a performance issue or mental health crisis, the employee will become defensive. Trust is built through small moments — not grand gestures.
- Stay curious when a star employee suddenly struggles: Ralph Kellogg advises managers to resist the urge to fix or assume they know the problem. Instead, ask questions, stay open to the messiness, and recognize that high performers are multidimensional people — the traits that made them great are still there, even when something is temporarily off.
Questions This Episode Answers
- How do I train managers to have mental health conversations without making employees feel judged? Ralph Kellogg explains that the relationship must exist before the conversation. Managers should use the ACT model (Acknowledged, Compassionate Accountability and Transparency), frame the conversation with concern rather than correction, and avoid pulling assignments away — which signals loss of confidence. Follow up in one to two weeks to show it's not a one-and-done transaction.
- What do I do if my startup founders say they don't have time for relationship-building with their team? Ralph Kellogg's answer: "Do you have time to replace that person?" He recommends bringing in someone — internally or as a consultant — who has the relational capacity to connect with the team. That way, founders can focus on their strengths while the team still receives support. Gallup research shows 70% of people leave because of their relationship with their manager, so investing in relational capacity is cheaper than constant turnover.
- How can HR scale mental health support as we grow from 100 to 500 employees? Ralph Kellogg says HR's role is to build trust with managers first, then train managers to build trust with their teams. Relationships don't start in crisis moments — they start on day one of onboarding. HR should teach managers small, repeatable behaviors: check-ins, follow-ups, staying curious in conflict, and recognizing that not every high performer wants to climb the ladder.
Daria Rudnik (00:02.154)
Welcome to Built by People Leaders. I'm your host, Daria Rudnik, and this show is for HR and L&D leaders in Scale-ups and fast-growing companies, the people building real impact from within and shaping AI ready organizations. Each episode I sit down with people leaders to talk about how they build strong cultures and shape organizations around them. It's about HR being seen as a business partner, as a true business partner by leaders and by HR themselves.
And let's let's get into that. And today we have a very special guest, Ralph Kellogg. He's the Chief Human Resources Officer at Lutheran Family Services, TEDx Speaker, Adjunct Professor, and author of Leading While Human: Notes I Wish Someone Had Given Me. With more than 20 years of executive leadership experience, Ralph helps leaders create workplaces where accountability and humanity coexist, drawing on his own experiences with mental health, resilience, and leading
Ralph (01:01.502)
Mm-hmm.
Daria Rudnik (01:09.288)
as as an LGBTQ + executive. His mission is simple, to help people leaders discover that authentic leadership isn't a weakness, it's their greatest competitive advantage. Welcome Ralph.
Ralph (01:21.23)
Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.
Daria Rudnik (01:25.462)
Well, I'm excited about our our conversation and I have so many questions for you. But my first question is what it what does it really mean to lead with with humanity, to be a leader while still being human?
Ralph (01:40.584)
That's a great question. that is something that I have been wrestling with and questioning my entire career. And I think when when I define what it means to lead while being human is that often in business we continually hear that people are an organization's greatest resource. Yet we often forget that. and people sometimes
Are treated as maybe you know looked at as pawns on a chessboard, so to speak, movable, replaceable, all of the things related to how people can sometimes be treated in the business community. And what I found is that when we talk about being human and being human-centered leaders, it's not about giving up accountability. It's not about saying that the work doesn't need to be done, but it's about looking at people.
And the skills and the abilities and the gifts and yes the challenges that they bring to an organization recognizing those things not trying to say leave your problems at the door or leave your personal life at the door
But inviting those all of those things in so that you're dealing with a holistic preview of the individual and you're working with them and you're saying, I want to partner with you, I want to work with you, I want to see you succeed in the role that you're in. And when challenges do arise, you don't run from them. if someone is coming to you saying, I'm struggling with mental health or I'm struggling with this aspect in my life, the conversation gets turned to how can I help you in this moment?
And how can I support you going forward so that you can continue to show up the way that you need to to be productive here and be productive in your personal life? And I think that's where the pivot is.
Daria Rudnik (03:37.239)
Yeah, yeah, I agree. I mean it's so hard to look for people to wear masks. Like some some people need to wear masks at work. That's my work mask and that's my home. Like I'm a different person. Kind of wearing and changing those masks is very exhausting, both for leaders and people. How did you come up like with that concept? And what's your personal story in HR and leadership?
Ralph (04:03.405)
Yeah, so the book actually came from my personal journals. I'm I'm a writer and I've kept a journal since I was in college. And I process, I think through writing things down, and through writing, discover how I could have done things more better or different, or look for lessons or those aha moments that everyone talks about. And so through my career, I I
As I was keeping journals, I would write down what I would call tent pull moments. Those things that happened to me either personally or professionally that shaped the way that I showed up in life or shaped the way that I showed up as a leader in an organization. There were a couple of instances in my career that really shaped where I found myself in terms of an HR leader and as a person in general. One of those was being outed for being gay by a manager in 2005 in the workplace and dealing with the ramifications and fallout from that. the other was
Being being struggling with mental health issues, but not knowing I had mental health issues, sort of just figuring the way that I reacted to things was just the way that I was wired as a human being, and there was nothing that I could do about it. that all came to a head for me in 2015 when my mom, who has since passed away from early onset Alzheimer's, had had issues and I came back to work. She lived she lived in a different state, and I came back to work after caring
For her, and my boss at the time came in and said, Ask me for something. And I immediately went into an anxiety attack and perspiring and all of the things. And she was so gracious and kind to me. She said, I'm not sure what's going on, but why don't you take the day? And I I want you to go seek some medical help because the way that you're reacting in this moment, I don't think is healthy or it doesn't appear
Ralph (06:15.469)
to be healthy. And that really opened the door for me to start thinking about mental health and and getting treatment for it. And what I found is that I was diagnosed with anxiety disorder and panic disorder. And that all came to public light when I did my TED talk in 2022 where I just said I'm a leader. I'm expected to know things. I'm expected to show up in a certain way and I lead
with knowing that I have mental health issues and I lead showing up being an LGT LGBTQ individual who has gone through marginalization and that that directs the lens that I look through when I lead myself and lead others.
Daria Rudnik (07:03.202)
Well, thanks for sharing your personal story, Ralph, because it is it is very important. We have so many different people at work tweeted differently. But my question to you, I I I know you probably you talk about this on your in your TED talk.
Ralph (07:16.365)
Yeah.
Daria Rudnik (07:19.114)
What would help leaders what what's the best way for leaders to act and react in these kind of situations? Because you don't know how they like if people some people are not aware that they have some mental health issues and someone recommends them go to see the doctor, go take a day off. You don't know how they would respond, I'm not crazy, I'm okay, your mind your own business, or they would appreciate that. What's the best way for leaders to approach that?
Ralph (07:49.174)
I think it it starts with it starts before that conversation. It starts with the relationship you have with the employee up to that point. So if you don't have a relationship with the employee, if you simply look at them as someone who sits in the cube and you don't know them as an individual, they're absolutely going to react in that way. it would be natural for anyone who doesn't have a relationship to become defensive or to become emotional
In a situation like that. So in order to have successful conversations like you're describing, it starts well before that. It starts ensuring you have a conversation, you have a relationship and have conversations with the employee before that point. You know them at least on some level. And it doesn't mean that you know everything about them personally, but you know a little bit about them to have a conversation with them. It also starts with the way that you provide feedback and coaching to them.
If the only interactions you ever have with an employee are when the employee is being told they haven't done something incorrectly or you're holding them to account for a result and you don't have any conversations with them after that point, again, if you approach them with something like this, they're going to assume that you're coming at them defensively or you're coming at them in a way that is pointing something out that might be wrong with them. So if you have a relationship with them, you can approach them and say, I want to talk candidly with you. I think there there's something going on in the way that I see you showing up. and it's really important for people who are struggling with mental health to not feel called out. and so it it doesn't you don't frame the conversation in terms of you're acting in a particular way or you don't seem to be yourself. You you approach it with a level of concern. I see this. This is my observation. Are you okay?
Ralph (09:51.552)
If the employee says, Well, I think I'm okay, or there's things going on, the most important thing you can do at that time is to say, I want to know how I can support you in this moment. I think the biggest thing that happens with leaders is that when they find out someone is struggling with a mental health condition, they immediately want to pull things away with that from them. Let me you know, put you on less stressful assignments, let me give you something else to do. That signals to the employer.
Employee, that you no longer have confidence in me because I've shared with you that I'm struggling with my mental health. So I would not recommend
Doing that. I would recommend finding out how you can reprioritize work so that the employee feels supported. That's a collaborative process. And then lastly, what I would say is don't have a one-and-done conversation with the employee. The worst thing you can do is approach an employee who's struggling with a mental health issue. You know, have that initial conversation and then never bring it up again because that stigmatizes the employee. It makes it look like it was transactional rather than relationship.
So follow up with the employee in a week or two and say, you know, employee, you brought this concern to me. I want to check in with you. If the employee wants to talk, let them talk. If the employee says, I'm not ready to have that conversation with you right now, say that's perfectly okay. Know that my door is open when you want to talk. I'm here for you.
That's all you have to do. so in answer to your question in a very long-winded way, the relationship has to start before you can begin having that deep of a conversation with someone.
Daria Rudnik (11:31.786)
Yeah, I hear what you're saying. Like you first you build trust so that you can have this kind of conversation. Then you show up with the support, no judgment, but just I'm here to support you and find the way together. It's not just okay, let's pull everything away from you, deal with your things. Again, you as a leader decide. No, you don't have to decide. Like it's it's a partnership, it's a collaboration. You decide together.
Ralph (11:52.437)
Yep. Absolutely.
Daria Rudnik (11:55.671)
Like how HR can help leaders build that kind of culture? 'Cause I mean, you know, leaders they don't wanna ha they people feel uncomfortable talking about these things, seeing these things. So how HR can help build this kind of organizational culture where this is normal. You can have these kind of conversations.
Ralph (12:04.845)
Yes. I think it starts with an understanding of transparency and respect. I also think it starts with HR really sharing the message that relationships aren't built in one moment. They're built upon small moments that you have with people throughout the day. They start when the employee is hired. They start when the employee is onboarded to your team. They start with the connection and I would say to the intentional connection that the manager tries to make with the employee at the start of their career in the organization. We know, and I know this is an this is an overused statistic, but it's still true. Gallup still points out that 70% of people will leave organizations because of the relationship they have with their managers. So I think HR's role in this is to say, listen, the relationship starts on day one and it starts with the small things that you do that can accumulate and lead to a longer-term relationship where you can have deeper conversations about this.
So it starts with the w with you know, obviously with small things when you're getting to know someone, but it also starts in the everyday things where you follow up on what you say that you will do, where you check in with people.
Ralph (13:35.462)
Where you intentionally ensure that people feel safe and that they feel as though they belong in the work environment. And if they don't, you're there following up with them. And so I think HR needs to help managers understand that while they are responsible for production and accountability, they're also responsible to take care of the people who help produce the results. And so
One of the things that I always stress when I coach managers is your biggest responsibility, whether you understand it or not, is the way that you take care of and support your team because they are the individuals who are going to help you as a manager be successful.
Daria Rudnik (14:16.03)
Yeah. So basically like we as HR we build trust with leaders first. We we are there for them because they also stressed and there was a lot of anxiety in this leadership position. I mean they they're so stressed and kind of being there for them, being supportive, building this trust with managers and then helping them to realize that they they need and should and can do the same for their teams.
Daria Rudnik (14:39.072)
You know what? there are different industries and and different industries require that different speed, different pace, different kind of pace of change. And if we talk about startup and scale up, everything intact, everything is so forced. Like I don't have time for that conversation. I don't have time for this nonsense. I don't want people who are again so to say weak. But what then what's your take on that?
Ralph (15:08.381)
I I understand that sentiment. I I've I've spent time in tech and I and and in startups and I understand that the pace is furious and you are working toward the goal of whatever the goal may be in that moment. but again I would point to if you don't have time for it, do you have time to replace that person? Do you have time to start and stop again to find someone equally as talented as the individual you have in the role.
I'm a very big proponent of the belief that leaders are not going to come to the table with every skill set that we want a leader to have. Some leaders come to the skills come to the table with analytical ability, technical ability, relationship ability, but they're not they're not someone who necessarily is going to come with with that with a menu of services and you sort of do an a la carte of what you want in the moment. So if you are someone who is in startup or you are in tech or you are the entrepreneur, find someone who is good at connecting with your team, whether it's someone you bring on board or whether it's a consultant that you introduce right away to say,
This person is going to be here in this way to support our efforts. And the and when I say support our efforts, this is what I mean. And so you clearly define it with with the the employees and and within the organization. And you invite that person in often enough that they become a a mainstay or at least a staple on some level, so that people learn to trust that if I do have an issue, there is someone I can go to. I'm not on an island. so I think.
Ralph (16:53.229)
I think smart people can sometimes limit their scope and say, well, I don't have time to do that. This is the goal. My comment is you don't have time to replace people and start over. So instead of doing that, find someone who can complement what it is that you're doing. Find someone who has those skill sets and invite them into the process so that you can grow and focus on what you do best and allow someone the opportunity to work with your team that way.
Daria Rudnik (17:24.744)
I love it. I think it's a brilliant idea. I mean, it's it's all about delegation. You can delegate things you're not good at. I mean, not everyone is can have this kind of conversations. Obviously, I do believe we need to learn it's a very important skill. But in on the organizational scale, where there are so many people, so many other things, obviously have someone who can support your team. And honestly, yeah, that's right. You you're right that replacement of this person, kind of mistakes people make when they're stressed. It's it all costs money. But it's also the right thing to do. It's the right thing to do to treat people right.
Ralph (17:57.164)
And I think that goes to what you asked earlier about you know, the human in leading well human. It is the right thing to do, to treat people with respect, with dignity, and do so consistently. so it's not just I'm gonna put it in my value statement or my mission statement or my vision statement, and I hang it on the wall and and we speak to it. People look at what leaders do every day. And so if you want a culture that is supportive, if you want a culture that is accountable and collaborative, and and I believe those things can coexist, then you have to have leaders that are committed to treating people humanely and recognizing that they're not going to show up as one-dimensional. They're going to show up as multidimensional people with multidimensional issues. and that is what you sign on for when you hire someone. that is part of that psychological contract that you make with someone when you bring them on board to your organization.
Daria Rudnik (19:04.066)
And I'm curious if you have any like a story from leaders you coached or leaders within the organization that managed to like to go through this transition from not knowing how to respond to employees' mental health or kind of to being more humane leader.
Ralph (19:23.661)
So when I was originally hired from the role that I that I'm currently serving in, it was 2022 in the middle or excuse me, it was 2020. Excuse me, it was in the middle of the pandemic. And so I got hired on Zoom, met my team on Zoom, all of the things. And I wasn't used to not being in connection with people and I remember early on, HR folks that I that I knew in community called me and said, How are you helping team members who are feeling isolated and disconnected from the world because we're not in the office anymore? And I rem I remember saying to them very flippantly, I said, Well, I think everyone's kind of getting over this the way that I am, which is, you know, shopping on Amazon and eating like a minute after school special and watching Tiger King. Isn't that everyone's sort of coping mechanism at this point?
And what I found in that in that situation is that wasn't the case. and I struggled with understanding that my mental health was starting to be impacted in the way that i described earlier through anxiety and through panic and through different different kinds of things and so what i did is i created a model which is outlined in my TED talk and I started working with managers to have conversations with people
Ralph (21:06.073)
About the ways in which they can overcome mental health issues in the workplace. And the model is called ACT, and it's acknowledged compassionate accountability and transparency. And I talked a little bit earlier about how to walk through that. But I did work with one manager in particular who was new, who was scared to have conversations with their employees, who felt disconnected because they were doing this all day long and dealing with Zoom fatigue and all of the other things that resulted.
And what I found from that person is they said I was very scared to walk into a conversation with them. But what I did and I and I found this interesting.
There was a one-on-one meeting that she was having with one of her employees one day. And the employee said, I feel really isolated and I don't know how to handle this. And the manager said, All I said to her was, Me too. I feel the same way. And that level of vulnerability created a level of trust between the manager and the employee. And there were no longer titles. It was just two people talking to each other. and those two words, me too.
The manager came back to me and she said, I had no intention of saying that. It was probably very unprofessional. I know I shouldn't sympathize with the employee. and and but she said, This is this is how I felt in the moment, and I and I just felt it was okay to say that. And I responded to her and I said, I don't look at that as sympathy, I think it's the exact right thing that you did, because at the end of the day
We're all human beings sharing a common experience. And in that there was no playbook at that time for how to address those concerns and that level of isolation. So having the courage to say me too created an opportunity for real dialogue and real connection and real growth for this manager.
Daria Rudnik (23:04.66)
I really think we we don't have enough examples of good leadership. We have books, but it you don't learn from books. You learn from other people, from your own manager. And what we used to see as a managers is go deliver, don't bring me problems, bring me solutions. So I I know Ralph, you talk and write about leadership development. So how leaders can grow as as leaders when they don't have enough examples, enough role mo models.
Ralph (23:40.408)
That I wish I had the answer to, because that would make a terrific book. and and I don't have I don't have the answer to that specifically, but what I would say is to stay curious and to ask questions and to remain humble and to constantly strive to learn, not just from the good examples, but also from the bad. and that you look beyond just the business world.
That you look you know, in society to say, I don't want to do that. If I were in that position, I would want to be treated this way. And developing a the core strength of empathy to say, I may not have walked in your shoes, but I can understand why you might feel the way that you do. Let's have a conversation about that. I think so often one of the one of the things in leadership in life that we that we stumble on is that well I say something to you and you don't agree with and immediately so the fences go up and you're wrong and I'm right and the conversation stops. And we need to dig deeper than that to say disagreement is natural. We're gonna have that. We're human beings, that's going to occur. But if we stay curious and if we dig a little deeper
We're gonna find we probably have more in common than we think. And this is just an issue that we need to move beyond. And maybe at the end of the day, we won't agree, but we can find compromise. And oftentimes that's what's left out of the conversation because in in in work, it's I'm your manager, do what I say. and that doesn't work anymore necessarily in the workplace. people are not wired to necessarily say,
Ralph (25:31.808)
I'm I will do what you say and I'm not going to ask questions. and and I would say to that, would you really want someone on your team who who didn't ask questions, who didn't want to know more, who didn't challenge, who didn't want to have a greater understanding of why they were being asked to do something? So my biggest, my biggest plea to people who are managing, who are leading is to stay curious, to understand that conflict is going to happen.
In even if the fences go up, recognize that there is still opportunity to learn and grow.
Daria Rudnik (26:09.554)
It feels like curiosity is is key to so many things. We learn with curiosity, we can connect with people with the help of curiosity by being curious in in other people, what they think, how they feel, how they react. And that actually can help us find better answers. Like there's no playbook, no framework. Just be curious. Yeah.
Ralph (26:28.799)
Absolutely. And you know, and and leaders aren't taught that. when you're in school, when you're starting your first job, it's typically focused on productivity, fixing, fixing issues, overcoming obstacles, things along those lines. It's not addressed in how do you stay curious? How do you stay curious in conflict? How do you stay curious when you know a star employee suddenly seems to not be doing well? instead of just pointing out and saying, I know what the issue is, I'm going to fix it. Stay curious. Have the conversation. Ask the questions. And be willing to deal with the messiness. And when I say the messiness, it's it's that multidimensional person that you thought was fantastic when you hired them. So so continue to invest in them because they're still fantastic.
Daria Rudnik (27:26.416)
Well, Ralph that's that's an amazing conversation. Well, thank you so much for sharing your personal stories. I have one final question for you. And this question is if you if you had a magic wand and that could solve one biggest professional challenge HR people leaders have, what would that fix?
Ralph (27:47.694)
Wow, that's a final jeopardy question. I think
I think what I would try to what I would try to address, what I would try to fix in a meaningful way is to recognize that not every person is going to want what you want for them. So you hire somebody and they come in and they're happy in their role. They're a wonderful subject matter expert, star producer. They may not be willing or interested in taking the next step.
But that doesn't mean that that person gets discounted. So, you know, again, staying curious and understanding motivations and developing those relationships and understanding that the gifts people bring to organizations are not always going to align with climbing the ladder, so to speak, or moving to the next promotion.
and and understanding that we need those individuals in the organization who are wonderful subject matter experts, who are informal leaders, who are those individuals that show up every day and do the hard work, because those individuals I think are are are the people that keep the organization moving in a positive direction. So my my overall piece of advice is stay curious and recognize there's not a one-size-fits-all approach to managing or leading people. Everyone is different.
Everyone needs and wants different things. And recognizing that that is the the key to successful leadership is something that I wish I could impart or understand or solve for everyone.
Daria Rudnik (29:32.32)
Yeah, yeah, I agree. I mean, ladies are ambitious people who wanna grow and when they see someone who doesn't, what? Why?
Ralph (29:37.461)
Exactly. What's wrong with you? What's wrong with you? And it's like, there's nothing wrong with me. I'm just happy doing what I'm doing. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.
Daria Rudnik (29:48.78)
Well, thank you so much, Ralph, for your wisdom, for sharing your insights. How people can find you, how can reach out to you, how they can find your book.
Ralph (29:57.151)
Yeah, I am on all major book platforms. So Amazon, Barnes and Noble, all of the all of the retailers. the book again is Leading While Human Notes I Wish Someone Had Given Me. and then my website is RalphKellogg.com. So and then I'm also on LinkedIn. I think I'm the only Ralph Kellogg on LinkedIn. So if you want to find me, you can find me.
Daria Rudnik (30:21.238)
And we have all the links to the notes to this episode. Well, thank you so much for being with us. Thanks for listening till the end. If you like this episode, please give us five stars on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Subscribe to our YouTube channel and stay tuned for the next episodes. Bye.
Welcome to Built by People Leaders. I'm your host, Daria Rudnik, and this show is for HR and L&D leaders in Scale-ups and fast-growing companies, the people building real impact from within and shaping AI ready organizations. Each episode I sit down with people leaders to talk about how they build strong cultures and shape organizations around them. It's about HR being seen as a business partner, as a true business partner by leaders and by HR themselves.
And let's let's get into that. And today we have a very special guest, Ralph Kellogg. He's the Chief Human Resources Officer at Lutheran Family Services, TEDx Speaker, Adjunct Professor, and author of Leading While Human: Notes I Wish Someone Had Given Me. With more than 20 years of executive leadership experience, Ralph helps leaders create workplaces where accountability and humanity coexist, drawing on his own experiences with mental health, resilience, and leading
Ralph (01:01.502)
Mm-hmm.
Daria Rudnik (01:09.288)
as as an LGBTQ + executive. His mission is simple, to help people leaders discover that authentic leadership isn't a weakness, it's their greatest competitive advantage. Welcome Ralph.
Ralph (01:21.23)
Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.
Daria Rudnik (01:25.462)
Well, I'm excited about our our conversation and I have so many questions for you. But my first question is what it what does it really mean to lead with with humanity, to be a leader while still being human?
Ralph (01:40.584)
That's a great question. that is something that I have been wrestling with and questioning my entire career. And I think when when I define what it means to lead while being human is that often in business we continually hear that people are an organization's greatest resource. Yet we often forget that. and people sometimes
Are treated as maybe you know looked at as pawns on a chessboard, so to speak, movable, replaceable, all of the things related to how people can sometimes be treated in the business community. And what I found is that when we talk about being human and being human-centered leaders, it's not about giving up accountability. It's not about saying that the work doesn't need to be done, but it's about looking at people.
And the skills and the abilities and the gifts and yes the challenges that they bring to an organization recognizing those things not trying to say leave your problems at the door or leave your personal life at the door
But inviting those all of those things in so that you're dealing with a holistic preview of the individual and you're working with them and you're saying, I want to partner with you, I want to work with you, I want to see you succeed in the role that you're in. And when challenges do arise, you don't run from them. if someone is coming to you saying, I'm struggling with mental health or I'm struggling with this aspect in my life, the conversation gets turned to how can I help you in this moment?
And how can I support you going forward so that you can continue to show up the way that you need to to be productive here and be productive in your personal life? And I think that's where the pivot is.
Daria Rudnik (03:37.239)
Yeah, yeah, I agree. I mean it's so hard to look for people to wear masks. Like some some people need to wear masks at work. That's my work mask and that's my home. Like I'm a different person. Kind of wearing and changing those masks is very exhausting, both for leaders and people. How did you come up like with that concept? And what's your personal story in HR and leadership?
Ralph (04:03.405)
Yeah, so the book actually came from my personal journals. I'm I'm a writer and I've kept a journal since I was in college. And I process, I think through writing things down, and through writing, discover how I could have done things more better or different, or look for lessons or those aha moments that everyone talks about. And so through my career, I I
As I was keeping journals, I would write down what I would call tent pull moments. Those things that happened to me either personally or professionally that shaped the way that I showed up in life or shaped the way that I showed up as a leader in an organization. There were a couple of instances in my career that really shaped where I found myself in terms of an HR leader and as a person in general. One of those was being outed for being gay by a manager in 2005 in the workplace and dealing with the ramifications and fallout from that. the other was
Being being struggling with mental health issues, but not knowing I had mental health issues, sort of just figuring the way that I reacted to things was just the way that I was wired as a human being, and there was nothing that I could do about it. that all came to a head for me in 2015 when my mom, who has since passed away from early onset Alzheimer's, had had issues and I came back to work. She lived she lived in a different state, and I came back to work after caring
For her, and my boss at the time came in and said, Ask me for something. And I immediately went into an anxiety attack and perspiring and all of the things. And she was so gracious and kind to me. She said, I'm not sure what's going on, but why don't you take the day? And I I want you to go seek some medical help because the way that you're reacting in this moment, I don't think is healthy or it doesn't appear
Ralph (06:15.469)
to be healthy. And that really opened the door for me to start thinking about mental health and and getting treatment for it. And what I found is that I was diagnosed with anxiety disorder and panic disorder. And that all came to public light when I did my TED talk in 2022 where I just said I'm a leader. I'm expected to know things. I'm expected to show up in a certain way and I lead
with knowing that I have mental health issues and I lead showing up being an LGT LGBTQ individual who has gone through marginalization and that that directs the lens that I look through when I lead myself and lead others.
Daria Rudnik (07:03.202)
Well, thanks for sharing your personal story, Ralph, because it is it is very important. We have so many different people at work tweeted differently. But my question to you, I I I know you probably you talk about this on your in your TED talk.
Ralph (07:16.365)
Yeah.
Daria Rudnik (07:19.114)
What would help leaders what what's the best way for leaders to act and react in these kind of situations? Because you don't know how they like if people some people are not aware that they have some mental health issues and someone recommends them go to see the doctor, go take a day off. You don't know how they would respond, I'm not crazy, I'm okay, your mind your own business, or they would appreciate that. What's the best way for leaders to approach that?
Ralph (07:49.174)
I think it it starts with it starts before that conversation. It starts with the relationship you have with the employee up to that point. So if you don't have a relationship with the employee, if you simply look at them as someone who sits in the cube and you don't know them as an individual, they're absolutely going to react in that way. it would be natural for anyone who doesn't have a relationship to become defensive or to become emotional
In a situation like that. So in order to have successful conversations like you're describing, it starts well before that. It starts ensuring you have a conversation, you have a relationship and have conversations with the employee before that point. You know them at least on some level. And it doesn't mean that you know everything about them personally, but you know a little bit about them to have a conversation with them. It also starts with the way that you provide feedback and coaching to them.
If the only interactions you ever have with an employee are when the employee is being told they haven't done something incorrectly or you're holding them to account for a result and you don't have any conversations with them after that point, again, if you approach them with something like this, they're going to assume that you're coming at them defensively or you're coming at them in a way that is pointing something out that might be wrong with them. So if you have a relationship with them, you can approach them and say, I want to talk candidly with you. I think there there's something going on in the way that I see you showing up. and it's really important for people who are struggling with mental health to not feel called out. and so it it doesn't you don't frame the conversation in terms of you're acting in a particular way or you don't seem to be yourself. You you approach it with a level of concern. I see this. This is my observation. Are you okay?
Ralph (09:51.552)
If the employee says, Well, I think I'm okay, or there's things going on, the most important thing you can do at that time is to say, I want to know how I can support you in this moment. I think the biggest thing that happens with leaders is that when they find out someone is struggling with a mental health condition, they immediately want to pull things away with that from them. Let me you know, put you on less stressful assignments, let me give you something else to do. That signals to the employer.
Employee, that you no longer have confidence in me because I've shared with you that I'm struggling with my mental health. So I would not recommend
Doing that. I would recommend finding out how you can reprioritize work so that the employee feels supported. That's a collaborative process. And then lastly, what I would say is don't have a one-and-done conversation with the employee. The worst thing you can do is approach an employee who's struggling with a mental health issue. You know, have that initial conversation and then never bring it up again because that stigmatizes the employee. It makes it look like it was transactional rather than relationship.
So follow up with the employee in a week or two and say, you know, employee, you brought this concern to me. I want to check in with you. If the employee wants to talk, let them talk. If the employee says, I'm not ready to have that conversation with you right now, say that's perfectly okay. Know that my door is open when you want to talk. I'm here for you.
That's all you have to do. so in answer to your question in a very long-winded way, the relationship has to start before you can begin having that deep of a conversation with someone.
Daria Rudnik (11:31.786)
Yeah, I hear what you're saying. Like you first you build trust so that you can have this kind of conversation. Then you show up with the support, no judgment, but just I'm here to support you and find the way together. It's not just okay, let's pull everything away from you, deal with your things. Again, you as a leader decide. No, you don't have to decide. Like it's it's a partnership, it's a collaboration. You decide together.
Ralph (11:52.437)
Yep. Absolutely.
Daria Rudnik (11:55.671)
Like how HR can help leaders build that kind of culture? 'Cause I mean, you know, leaders they don't wanna ha they people feel uncomfortable talking about these things, seeing these things. So how HR can help build this kind of organizational culture where this is normal. You can have these kind of conversations.
Ralph (12:04.845)
Yes. I think it starts with an understanding of transparency and respect. I also think it starts with HR really sharing the message that relationships aren't built in one moment. They're built upon small moments that you have with people throughout the day. They start when the employee is hired. They start when the employee is onboarded to your team. They start with the connection and I would say to the intentional connection that the manager tries to make with the employee at the start of their career in the organization. We know, and I know this is an this is an overused statistic, but it's still true. Gallup still points out that 70% of people will leave organizations because of the relationship they have with their managers. So I think HR's role in this is to say, listen, the relationship starts on day one and it starts with the small things that you do that can accumulate and lead to a longer-term relationship where you can have deeper conversations about this.
So it starts with the w with you know, obviously with small things when you're getting to know someone, but it also starts in the everyday things where you follow up on what you say that you will do, where you check in with people.
Ralph (13:35.462)
Where you intentionally ensure that people feel safe and that they feel as though they belong in the work environment. And if they don't, you're there following up with them. And so I think HR needs to help managers understand that while they are responsible for production and accountability, they're also responsible to take care of the people who help produce the results. And so
One of the things that I always stress when I coach managers is your biggest responsibility, whether you understand it or not, is the way that you take care of and support your team because they are the individuals who are going to help you as a manager be successful.
Daria Rudnik (14:16.03)
Yeah. So basically like we as HR we build trust with leaders first. We we are there for them because they also stressed and there was a lot of anxiety in this leadership position. I mean they they're so stressed and kind of being there for them, being supportive, building this trust with managers and then helping them to realize that they they need and should and can do the same for their teams.
Daria Rudnik (14:39.072)
You know what? there are different industries and and different industries require that different speed, different pace, different kind of pace of change. And if we talk about startup and scale up, everything intact, everything is so forced. Like I don't have time for that conversation. I don't have time for this nonsense. I don't want people who are again so to say weak. But what then what's your take on that?
Ralph (15:08.381)
I I understand that sentiment. I I've I've spent time in tech and I and and in startups and I understand that the pace is furious and you are working toward the goal of whatever the goal may be in that moment. but again I would point to if you don't have time for it, do you have time to replace that person? Do you have time to start and stop again to find someone equally as talented as the individual you have in the role.
I'm a very big proponent of the belief that leaders are not going to come to the table with every skill set that we want a leader to have. Some leaders come to the skills come to the table with analytical ability, technical ability, relationship ability, but they're not they're not someone who necessarily is going to come with with that with a menu of services and you sort of do an a la carte of what you want in the moment. So if you are someone who is in startup or you are in tech or you are the entrepreneur, find someone who is good at connecting with your team, whether it's someone you bring on board or whether it's a consultant that you introduce right away to say,
This person is going to be here in this way to support our efforts. And the and when I say support our efforts, this is what I mean. And so you clearly define it with with the the employees and and within the organization. And you invite that person in often enough that they become a a mainstay or at least a staple on some level, so that people learn to trust that if I do have an issue, there is someone I can go to. I'm not on an island. so I think.
Ralph (16:53.229)
I think smart people can sometimes limit their scope and say, well, I don't have time to do that. This is the goal. My comment is you don't have time to replace people and start over. So instead of doing that, find someone who can complement what it is that you're doing. Find someone who has those skill sets and invite them into the process so that you can grow and focus on what you do best and allow someone the opportunity to work with your team that way.
Daria Rudnik (17:24.744)
I love it. I think it's a brilliant idea. I mean, it's it's all about delegation. You can delegate things you're not good at. I mean, not everyone is can have this kind of conversations. Obviously, I do believe we need to learn it's a very important skill. But in on the organizational scale, where there are so many people, so many other things, obviously have someone who can support your team. And honestly, yeah, that's right. You you're right that replacement of this person, kind of mistakes people make when they're stressed. It's it all costs money. But it's also the right thing to do. It's the right thing to do to treat people right.
Ralph (17:57.164)
And I think that goes to what you asked earlier about you know, the human in leading well human. It is the right thing to do, to treat people with respect, with dignity, and do so consistently. so it's not just I'm gonna put it in my value statement or my mission statement or my vision statement, and I hang it on the wall and and we speak to it. People look at what leaders do every day. And so if you want a culture that is supportive, if you want a culture that is accountable and collaborative, and and I believe those things can coexist, then you have to have leaders that are committed to treating people humanely and recognizing that they're not going to show up as one-dimensional. They're going to show up as multidimensional people with multidimensional issues. and that is what you sign on for when you hire someone. that is part of that psychological contract that you make with someone when you bring them on board to your organization.
Daria Rudnik (19:04.066)
And I'm curious if you have any like a story from leaders you coached or leaders within the organization that managed to like to go through this transition from not knowing how to respond to employees' mental health or kind of to being more humane leader.
Ralph (19:23.661)
So when I was originally hired from the role that I that I'm currently serving in, it was 2022 in the middle or excuse me, it was 2020. Excuse me, it was in the middle of the pandemic. And so I got hired on Zoom, met my team on Zoom, all of the things. And I wasn't used to not being in connection with people and I remember early on, HR folks that I that I knew in community called me and said, How are you helping team members who are feeling isolated and disconnected from the world because we're not in the office anymore? And I rem I remember saying to them very flippantly, I said, Well, I think everyone's kind of getting over this the way that I am, which is, you know, shopping on Amazon and eating like a minute after school special and watching Tiger King. Isn't that everyone's sort of coping mechanism at this point?
And what I found in that in that situation is that wasn't the case. and I struggled with understanding that my mental health was starting to be impacted in the way that i described earlier through anxiety and through panic and through different different kinds of things and so what i did is i created a model which is outlined in my TED talk and I started working with managers to have conversations with people
Ralph (21:06.073)
About the ways in which they can overcome mental health issues in the workplace. And the model is called ACT, and it's acknowledged compassionate accountability and transparency. And I talked a little bit earlier about how to walk through that. But I did work with one manager in particular who was new, who was scared to have conversations with their employees, who felt disconnected because they were doing this all day long and dealing with Zoom fatigue and all of the other things that resulted.
And what I found from that person is they said I was very scared to walk into a conversation with them. But what I did and I and I found this interesting.
There was a one-on-one meeting that she was having with one of her employees one day. And the employee said, I feel really isolated and I don't know how to handle this. And the manager said, All I said to her was, Me too. I feel the same way. And that level of vulnerability created a level of trust between the manager and the employee. And there were no longer titles. It was just two people talking to each other. and those two words, me too.
The manager came back to me and she said, I had no intention of saying that. It was probably very unprofessional. I know I shouldn't sympathize with the employee. and and but she said, This is this is how I felt in the moment, and I and I just felt it was okay to say that. And I responded to her and I said, I don't look at that as sympathy, I think it's the exact right thing that you did, because at the end of the day
We're all human beings sharing a common experience. And in that there was no playbook at that time for how to address those concerns and that level of isolation. So having the courage to say me too created an opportunity for real dialogue and real connection and real growth for this manager.
Daria Rudnik (23:04.66)
I really think we we don't have enough examples of good leadership. We have books, but it you don't learn from books. You learn from other people, from your own manager. And what we used to see as a managers is go deliver, don't bring me problems, bring me solutions. So I I know Ralph, you talk and write about leadership development. So how leaders can grow as as leaders when they don't have enough examples, enough role mo models.
Ralph (23:40.408)
That I wish I had the answer to, because that would make a terrific book. and and I don't have I don't have the answer to that specifically, but what I would say is to stay curious and to ask questions and to remain humble and to constantly strive to learn, not just from the good examples, but also from the bad. and that you look beyond just the business world.
That you look you know, in society to say, I don't want to do that. If I were in that position, I would want to be treated this way. And developing a the core strength of empathy to say, I may not have walked in your shoes, but I can understand why you might feel the way that you do. Let's have a conversation about that. I think so often one of the one of the things in leadership in life that we that we stumble on is that well I say something to you and you don't agree with and immediately so the fences go up and you're wrong and I'm right and the conversation stops. And we need to dig deeper than that to say disagreement is natural. We're gonna have that. We're human beings, that's going to occur. But if we stay curious and if we dig a little deeper
We're gonna find we probably have more in common than we think. And this is just an issue that we need to move beyond. And maybe at the end of the day, we won't agree, but we can find compromise. And oftentimes that's what's left out of the conversation because in in in work, it's I'm your manager, do what I say. and that doesn't work anymore necessarily in the workplace. people are not wired to necessarily say,
Ralph (25:31.808)
I'm I will do what you say and I'm not going to ask questions. and and I would say to that, would you really want someone on your team who who didn't ask questions, who didn't want to know more, who didn't challenge, who didn't want to have a greater understanding of why they were being asked to do something? So my biggest, my biggest plea to people who are managing, who are leading is to stay curious, to understand that conflict is going to happen.
In even if the fences go up, recognize that there is still opportunity to learn and grow.
Daria Rudnik (26:09.554)
It feels like curiosity is is key to so many things. We learn with curiosity, we can connect with people with the help of curiosity by being curious in in other people, what they think, how they feel, how they react. And that actually can help us find better answers. Like there's no playbook, no framework. Just be curious. Yeah.
Ralph (26:28.799)
Absolutely. And you know, and and leaders aren't taught that. when you're in school, when you're starting your first job, it's typically focused on productivity, fixing, fixing issues, overcoming obstacles, things along those lines. It's not addressed in how do you stay curious? How do you stay curious in conflict? How do you stay curious when you know a star employee suddenly seems to not be doing well? instead of just pointing out and saying, I know what the issue is, I'm going to fix it. Stay curious. Have the conversation. Ask the questions. And be willing to deal with the messiness. And when I say the messiness, it's it's that multidimensional person that you thought was fantastic when you hired them. So so continue to invest in them because they're still fantastic.
Daria Rudnik (27:26.416)
Well, Ralph that's that's an amazing conversation. Well, thank you so much for sharing your personal stories. I have one final question for you. And this question is if you if you had a magic wand and that could solve one biggest professional challenge HR people leaders have, what would that fix?
Ralph (27:47.694)
Wow, that's a final jeopardy question. I think
I think what I would try to what I would try to address, what I would try to fix in a meaningful way is to recognize that not every person is going to want what you want for them. So you hire somebody and they come in and they're happy in their role. They're a wonderful subject matter expert, star producer. They may not be willing or interested in taking the next step.
But that doesn't mean that that person gets discounted. So, you know, again, staying curious and understanding motivations and developing those relationships and understanding that the gifts people bring to organizations are not always going to align with climbing the ladder, so to speak, or moving to the next promotion.
and and understanding that we need those individuals in the organization who are wonderful subject matter experts, who are informal leaders, who are those individuals that show up every day and do the hard work, because those individuals I think are are are the people that keep the organization moving in a positive direction. So my my overall piece of advice is stay curious and recognize there's not a one-size-fits-all approach to managing or leading people. Everyone is different.
Everyone needs and wants different things. And recognizing that that is the the key to successful leadership is something that I wish I could impart or understand or solve for everyone.
Daria Rudnik (29:32.32)
Yeah, yeah, I agree. I mean, ladies are ambitious people who wanna grow and when they see someone who doesn't, what? Why?
Ralph (29:37.461)
Exactly. What's wrong with you? What's wrong with you? And it's like, there's nothing wrong with me. I'm just happy doing what I'm doing. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.
Daria Rudnik (29:48.78)
Well, thank you so much, Ralph, for your wisdom, for sharing your insights. How people can find you, how can reach out to you, how they can find your book.
Ralph (29:57.151)
Yeah, I am on all major book platforms. So Amazon, Barnes and Noble, all of the all of the retailers. the book again is Leading While Human Notes I Wish Someone Had Given Me. and then my website is RalphKellogg.com. So and then I'm also on LinkedIn. I think I'm the only Ralph Kellogg on LinkedIn. So if you want to find me, you can find me.
Daria Rudnik (30:21.238)
And we have all the links to the notes to this episode. Well, thank you so much for being with us. Thanks for listening till the end. If you like this episode, please give us five stars on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Subscribe to our YouTube channel and stay tuned for the next episodes. Bye.