The Post-Crisis Leadership Gap with Savio P. Clemente
Savio P. Clemente is a keynote and TEDx speaker, healthcare leadership strategist, journalist, and board-certified coach who has conducted more than 2,000 interviews with executives, clinicians, and high performers. A two-time cancer survivor and stem cell transplant recipient, Savio treated his 29-day hospital stay in 2024 as a field study in high-stakes decision-making, and built his Adaptive Resilience Framework around what he observed. His central thesis is that the first thing that fails is clarity and after that performance.
The episode targets the Post-Crisis Leadership Gap — the period after a restructure, leadership change, or failed initiative when things look stable but decision quality, alignment, and confidence quietly erode. For People teams at scaleups of 100–1,500 employees, this is the exact moment informal oversight breaks down and no one owns the recalibration. Savio explains why this drift widens into a chasm when leaders skip the recovery phase.
The episode targets the Post-Crisis Leadership Gap — the period after a restructure, leadership change, or failed initiative when things look stable but decision quality, alignment, and confidence quietly erode. For People teams at scaleups of 100–1,500 employees, this is the exact moment informal oversight breaks down and no one owns the recalibration. Savio explains why this drift widens into a chasm when leaders skip the recovery phase.
Challenges Addressed
- Drift after the crisis ends: Savio P. Clemente names the Post-Crisis Leadership Gap as the phase where cognitive load quietly undermines decisions long after the emergency is declared over. Left unaddressed, the gap widens into a chasm that is far harder to close.
- Leaders performing instead of leading: Savio observes that executives, like the celebrities he covered at the Oscars red carpet, keep "acting" a role and mask real needs — which corrodes trust across scaling People and talent orgs.
- Poor decision quality under pressure: Savio cites an estimated $935 billion in US healthcare waste, attributing much of it to poor decision-making after high-stakes disruption rather than to equipment or admin costs.
Actionable Takeaways
- Run the ALOHA Reboot in 7 minutes: Savio P. Clemente's practice — Acknowledge, Listen, Open, Harness, Act — helps a leader regain clarity fast. Do one letter per minute a day over five days if seven minutes feels impossible.
- Survey how the team feels, not just where they align: Before a big initiative, ask people to name a past moment with a similar feeling (not situation) and how they resourced it. This opens a concrete pathway to action.
- Name the crisis to create psychological distance: Explicitly labelling what is happening lets a team categorise the disruption and step back from it. Frame the conversation through psychological safety — trust and vulnerability — not clinical terms like metacognition.
Questions This Episode Answers
- What is the post-crisis leadership gap and why does it matter? Savio P. Clemente defines it as the period after disruption when performance is still expected but decision-making, confidence, and alignment quietly drift. It matters because organisations win or lose in the recovery phase, not during the emergency itself.
- How do I rebuild team decision-making after a restructure or major change? Savio recommends first identifying where the decision drift began, then using the ALOHA Reboot and framing discussions around psychological safety. Ask people to recall a past feeling they navigated successfully to unblock action.
- Who is accountable when a company delegates decisions to AI? Savio argues AI carries no consequence for a bad output, while human leaders do — so AI adoption must stay responsible. Daria references a Deloitte fine [TO CONFIRM] as a cautionary case of over-delegating decisions to AI.
Links & Resources Mentioned:
- Connect with Savio P. Clemente on LinkedIn
- TEDx Talk: "Seven Minutes to Wellness, How to Love Your Inner Stranger"
Daria Rudnik (00:02.508)
Welcome to Built by People Leaders Podcast. I'm your host, Daria Rudnik, and this show is for HR and L&D leaders in fast-growing companies, those building real impact from within and shaping AI ready organizations. Each episode, I sit down with people leaders to talk about how they build strong cultures and shape organizations around them. It's about HR being seen as a true business partner by leaders and by HR themselves. Let's get into that. And today I have a great guest.
Savio Clemente, who's a keynote and TEDx speaker, healthcare leadership strategist, journalist, and board-certified coach, who focuses on how leaders maintain clarity and make better decisions under pressure. His work draws from more than 2,000 interviews with executives, clinicians, and high performers, along with his own experience as a two-time cancer survivor and stem cell transplant recipient. He's best known for his work around what he calls the post-crisis leadership gap.
The period after disruption when performance is still expected, but internally decision making, confidence, and alignment begin to quietly drift. Welcome, Savio.
Savio P. Clemente (01:12.365)
Thank you so much, Daria. I really appreciate it. Let's see what we can serve your clients and your audience today.
Daria Rudnik (01:18.006)
Well yeah, and I have like my first question is what is this l post crisis leadership gap you're talking about?
Savio P. Clemente (01:26.691)
So it's the period after disruption when individuals seem like things are going okay. It's about surviving the crisis. Everyone wants to do that. But that's not where you win or lose. You win or lose when you actually what happens after? How do you recalibrate? How do you reorientate? So that gap is it's a gap, and then it drifts and then it shifts and then it gets wider. It becomes a big chasm. And then it's really hard to get back to normalization in any
fashion, whether that's normalization with yourself or with your team. My central thesis is performance doesn't fail first. Clarity does. So until you have clarity with what's actually happening and how to really navigate that thoroughly and effectively, you're never going to win properly because you're always going to play catch-up.
Daria Rudnik (02:13.056)
It sounds like like when there is a crisis everyone is get just mobilized and let's go, let's do it, let's let's finish this and let's finish it when it's finished. Okay, what's the next step? It kind of it falls apart. Is that is that what you're talking about?
Savio P. Clemente (02:26.356)
Absolutely. It's the anti-climax of the climax. Everyone everyone is in let's emergency mode. You're scanning for threats. You you figured out how to navigate some of those threats or put the fires out, so to speak, but there's still cognitive load, cognitive pressure that underlines and undermines all that decision making moving forward. So as you could imagine, my focus is with healthcare leaders and
What are most of their situations? It's very high stakes because it's themselves, it's their team, it's their organization, but it's also another human being. Like that is serious. And especially post COVID, that is something that everyone is grappling with and actually trying to figure out.
Daria Rudnik (03:10.83)
Well, that's really a very interesting angle because most people focus on on the crisis itself rather than what's happening after that. But tell us a little about about yourself and your journey, and I know you you've had some experiences that probably led to that understanding.
Savio P. Clemente (03:27.658)
Absolutely. So obviously we all love to talk about work. It what gives us meaning. It what allows us to have the lifestyle we want. But we're also human in a very AI-centered world right now. And so everyone wants to know about my background. So unfortunately, in 2014 I came back from a trip and I was noticing stomach distension. I was noticing some belabored breathing.
At that point, I went to a doctor, got a sonogram, and later that night they I heard nurses referring to sending me to the seventh floor, which they call the cancer floor. It was only until a day later that I was informed it was stage three, non-Hodgkins B cell lymphoma, which is a blood cancer. I was in the hospital for 15 days, bedridden for about seven days, two days before I left.
The doctor, medical director came to me and she's like, you need to start something called RCOP chemotherapy. Now, mind you, most people when they're told they have cancer, they have time to breathe and time to figure it out, see what next steps. I was bedridden in the hospital being told all this. This was back in 2014. So I did the RCOP chemotherapy. I did one round in the hospital, five other rounds every three weeks. And in 2014, about five days before Christmas.
I got my remission status and I was in remission for a decade until June of twenty twenty four when I had a relapse and that led to a pretty involved comprehensive healthcare journey, which includes a stem cell transplant. so I spent twenty nine days in the hospital. I lost about twenty six pounds. One night I had to be sent to the ICU to get norphynephrine. and I left the hospital after twenty nine days and
I did optionally an immunotherapy for four and a half months. And then I did about five months of physical therapy. And the person you're speaking with right now is a reflection of all those trials and tribulations. if people are wondering, I did not work during that time because when you have a relapse, especially over butt cl blood cancer, it's called refractory, it's a serious situation. and so it required one hundred percent of my input, energy, and thoughts.
Daria Rudnik (05:50.498)
That is really I mean, really hard experience. I cannot imagine that.
Daria Rudnik (05:57.751)
Is it somehow connected to what you're like helping leaders right now and and how?
Savio P. Clemente (06:04.704)
Yeah, absolutely. So the initial cancer, I waited five years until I was a remission because everyone kept telling me, including my oncologist, that after five years it's less likely to come back. So I didn't want to build something and have it crumble. And so at that moment in time, I had my n certified, I was board certified in health and wellness coaching. I was a writer. I became I sort of put more thought leadership out there. So became an official journalist. at this point I've interviewed over 2,000 leaders.
But it really wasn't until my stem cell transplant in 2024 that I really saw the gaps being in the hospital, seeing things that fortunately for me went right, but also could go left. because I was a witness to other people's experiences. I, when the nurses would come to do their rounds, I treated the experience as a field study. I know that sounds odd, and most people listening to this would be like, wait a minute, you're like,
To all these machines, they're doing vitals every four hours, the doctors are doing their rounds, and you're doing field study. Daria, what else can you really do? And I urge leaders and individuals listening to this and viewing this to actually allow yourself and submit yourself and surrender to yourself to the experience at hand. So I could have been really bitter, I could have blamed the situation, but that's not really how my personal personality type is.
I'm more of someone who says, okay, this happened to me. Let me not focus on the wound. Let me focus on the walk. Let me focus on what I need to do to self regulate, to create what I call psychological distancing. So distance creates a little buffer between me and the situation. And a lot of people who listen to this story will think, well, gosh, man, his story is really dramatic. I I I've never had cancer. I don't know. Yes, my story is dramatic, but you can apply this to any situation.
Job layoff, business collapse, divorce, please, socially, what what we're going through, politically, what we're going through, AI disruption, technological disruption. I often tell people that the thing that really gave me a lot of core strength and insight was these two anchors. And I learned it, what I call my exile period in the hospital, was silence and stillness. And I don't think as thought leaders, as leaders, as people who build, people who
Savio P. Clemente (08:29.01)
create, I don't think we give ourselves enough grace and time and devotion to silence and stillness. I often tell my clients, because I'm a you know board certified wellness coach that you have to carve out those minutes or those seconds in your day because if you are just not regulating in the right proper way, then that's it that's gonna be off key to a lot of people. Because at the end of the day, you've worked in institutions where corporations people think leadership is only in those
pockets. No, leadership is how people see you, how people want to mirror you, how people want to follow you. And so if you yourself are not fully focused on actually creating that type of environment, then you're not leading in the right
Daria Rudnik (09:12.142)
Yeah. Yeah. And people follow that path as well 'cause you're a setting example.
Well, you say that there's a crisis and kind of people get mobilized during crisis, but when crisis and stops, there is a gap. So like for you personally and for your clients, what is it you do when you overcome the crisis? You you won. You got it. What's next?
Savio P. Clemente (09:38.286)
What's next is actually trying to figure out how do I intentionally make the right steps forward? Because if you want to move in a certain direction and say your team or those individuals are not actually on the same page with that, how can you effectively create those circumstances in order for anything to flourish properly? So the first key is to really do an assessment, figure out exactly what's happening. And I did a TEDx talk.
about two years before I had my relapse. And my talk was called Seven Minutes to Wellness, How to Love Your Inner Stranger. And Daria, people say to me, like, what are you talking about, inner stranger? And I'm like, I left it ambiguous on purpose. And they're like, okay, so what's your inner stranger? I'm like, well, my inner stranger was, if I have to be honest, that young adult who actually never felt completely rooted or grounded. I I was friends with a lot of people. I wasn't bullied. I wasn't an outcast, but I never really felt connected.
To things and people. And she's like, I get it. Actually, my inner stranger is really that person who that like executive, professional businesswoman that I just can't seem to reach, or that great mother, or that great sibling that I want to be, but I just can't seem to sort of hone in on that. And so I have a simple lens of practice of framework. My framework is called the adaptive resilience framework. And really it's about spotting the signals and the patterns.
That affect us in many different ways that we are just not willing to see. And so my lens is called the aloha reboot. Aloha, as we all know in in Hawaiian, means hello. So it's a hello to your inner self. And so it's very simple. It's an acronym. A stands for acknowledge. So acknowledge where you are. Like I was in the hospital, tied to these machines, nurses are coming every four hours. This is my life. It doesn't have to be my complete life, but this is what's happening at the moment. So just
Whether that's a word vomit, typing it out, writing it out, whatever you need to do, just acknowledge what's actually happening. L stands for listening. So listen to your inner self. in Hawaiian, as you can imagine with my relapse, I've studied literally everything when it comes to healing, both mainstream, because I had a stem cell transplant, and also things of an integrative, holistic manner as well, and things of an ancient manner. So I grew up Catholic, but in college back way, way back ago, un up until now.
Savio P. Clemente (12:03.788)
I've studied everything from Buddhism to Jewish mysticism all the way down to Vedic philosophy. And so in Hawaiian, the kahunas, the kings of Hawaii, they believe that not only does the body send you sensations, but it actually has language, has consciousness, it's actually trying to tell us things. So you need to be silent and still in order to actually figure out what the body is saying. So they suggest talking to the body. I I don't suggest people do that in front of other people.
Daria Rudnik (12:31.582)
Yeah.
Savio P. Clemente (12:31.882)
It seems it seems a little strange that people don't even be talking to each other. but just try to figure out and listen deeply exactly what's happening. O stands for opening. So no matter what your belief system, even if you don't have one and you're atheist, it doesn't matter. You're just exploring yourself. So open up to that wisdom and that insight that comes through. H stands for harnessing. So harness that, make the mental connection, see what works, what doesn't work, because not everything's gonna work. And A stands for acting, act on that. But there's a caveat, you have to have courage to act.
in large portions of the work that I do, there's a central theme or posit that states it's called the models of change. It states that it's not that individuals don't want to change, they just don't know how to change. Most people want to, they just don't have the tools. So they don't know if they're thinking about change, pre-contemplation, in change, they're in change and thinking about relapsing. So you have to actually have the courage in order to do that and have the vulnerability to do that. And so it's the aloha reboot, it's seven minutes.
an executive once told me I don't have seven minutes, which I thought was strange, but hey, to each their own. So I'm like, take one of those, practice it for one minute a day, and after five days you'll have the aloha. So
Daria Rudnik (13:43.563)
Yeah, yeah, I love that I love the framework. So it's acknowledgement, listening, opening, harnessing, and acting. And I mean, I'm biased to action. So kind of I like that you have that at the end. And I I agree that there is a the need to have courage to actually act. Because we can't be in this situation where okay, we need to unlike I know something needs to be changed. I know I need to do something, but it it can be scary again, especially when crisis is over. There's like so much uncertainty. What's the next step?
Savio P. Clemente (13:54.36)
Course.
Daria Rudnik (14:12.704)
Do how do I make it right? So yeah.
Savio P. Clemente (14:14.678)
Yeah. And and and you know this in in in the work that you do with comes to people. I mean, most of my work is really centered upon the actual person, the human within that particular role. And most people are wearing masks. I'm just gonna be blunt and honest about it. I I can share a story three months before my cancer relapse, my editor sent me on an assignment. Now I cover health, wellness, and and leadership. But he said to me, Savio
Would you like to go to the Oscars red carpet and cover that? And I'm like, what? He's like, Yeah. So I had a friend who lives in LA and he's like, Yeah, I would love. So he took me to Malibu and Venice, never been. This is before the fires. and I h hung out with him. And then I covered the red carpet at at the Oscars. And what was interesting to me was that when the celebrities came, Daria, you know, I'm there with all like the big entertainment publications. And
I realize something. my God, they're still acting. They're acting for me. They're acting for their manager, their public their their you know, their their handlers, the photographers. And I'm like, my God, like I can't unsee things. I'm a coach, I'm a speaker, I'm a journalist. So I'm like, they're still acting. And so it actually mirrors what I see actually when I do this work is that especially healthcare leaders, they have to know the answers. They have to be the one in charge. There's compliance issues, there's bureaucratic issues, and so then they have a facade.
Daria Rudnik (15:19.939)
Yeah.
Savio P. Clemente (15:42.476)
They actually play this role and then they say, I'm burned out or this is soul sucking. And I tell people all the time, why can't it be soul searching? Why do you always have to feel like things are take being taken away from you rather than pouring into it?
Daria Rudnik (15:56.235)
I mean, because there's a lot of responsibility. Like they feel this weight of responsibility they need to do that, they need to deliver, especially in healthcare when there's so much depends on those professionals. So in organizational settings, like we to our listeners, HR in fast-growing companies, multiple industries, many industries. So how can you implement whether it's this aloha principles or I mean something else? How do you make sure that managers
can make decisions after crisis?
Savio P. Clemente (16:30.37)
I think the first thing is what I intimated earlier, which is figure out what the signals and the patterns are. So that sounds easier said than done, right? But actually what's actually triggering things within you? What's actually triggering things in how you handle the situation? So for example, you if you have a big initiative, beyond the fact that you're just so excited about it, survey your team actually. Figure out exactly not only who's on the right page, but how they actually feel about it. Oftentimes the work that I do, it's always like, Well, this is new. This
I've never dealt with this before. Yeah, no one has dealt with certain things before. But I always say to them, I want you to actually track back at a time in your life, not when you've experienced the same situation, but when you've experienced the same feeling. I want you to actually go back and tell me is there a time in your life where that feeling was similar? And how did you resource that that situation at that moment in time? Because then that opens the doorway and the pathway to actually figuring out,
I can do X, Y, and Z. I mean, we all work in business settings where things are complicated. It's not it's not very sort of linear. It's not very clear. It's often very muddied. And there's always individuals that have an opinion within said initiative or said situation. So that's first. Second thing is I want you to name it. I don't want you to name something for the sake of naming it, or I don't want you to name something to share identity. I want you to name it because then you can actually
create a reprieve. You can create actually that distance, that psychological distance that I mentioned. And also it also allows you to actually figure out for yourself, okay, you can categorize it. You can actually say that's actually what's actually happening. And now we want to move further along from that situation. Another thing, and this gets into the realm of something that I was thrust upon in in the hospital bed, which is this idea of metacognition.
This idea of who's doing the thinking of the thinking. Oftentimes we're just on automatic, especially in business settings. We we we know the processes, we hit play, and it kind of goes in, disruption happens, crisis happens, then we're the we're doing a rewind, and then we're doing a fast forward. And so for me, it's really about who's doing the thinking for me in the hospital. Well, who's the savio that's in the bed? And who's this other person whose mental acuity is still there?
Savio P. Clemente (18:50.679)
Who's still vibrant emotionally, who still has his psychological faculties handled well. And so allow yourself to actually figure that out. And then when crisis hits and you're past the crisis, create an adaptive resilience mindset. So a lot of people know about resilience as bouncing back, but mine was actually not only through lived experience, but actually figuring out how do I remain flexible and make the connections as I'm going along. How do I actually figure out for myself, well, what do I actually need and what do I don't?
What do I don't need? I I took the liberty one day and just picture this, not feeling well. I'm in a hospital bed. I think it was like day 16. I my hair now my hair shaved because I like the look. but like scraggly beard, you know, have all these punctures on my body, and thirteen or fourteen doctors and nurses come in the room to do the rounds, and I say to them,
Yeah, I've asked all these nurses that have come in the last two weeks to my bedside to do the vitals. And they've actually said to me, Everyone wants to rush to go home. and then they invariably come back. They have an infection or the complication. And I said, I don't want to come back. So I would love to go home, but I would rather you send me home when you feel it's necessary. So have once again that courage to do that. Because large part of ways, and I know I'm mirroring this idea of
wellness or health with business settings. But in a large part of ways if we don't tell people our needs, they're not going to figure it out for themselves. And I knew, having dealt with cancer the first time 10 years prior, that it's a relational my situation. It's not just the doctor's healing me. It's we're healing each other. I'm learning from them. They're learning from me. It's an ongoing thing. So if I don't surrender or submit to that, if I don't, for example, what I also did is I reframed, I mean
big believer in in reframing things, I reframed the chemo not as poison as an elixir. I just saw it as a scientifically designed medicinal item that I'm allowing. And instead of seeing it as that, I saw it as an elixir, as they call it mana in the Bible, something that's that's life force driven in my body. And I allow that to transform me. Cause at the end of the day, at least for me, if I'm looking back at my journey through, you know,
Savio P. Clemente (21:18.113)
from a professional lens and from a personal lens, I realized that it was never about climbing the summit. It was always about who I became as I was climbing. It was about who and what is actually shaping these experiences.
Daria Rudnik (21:34.681)
Well, I mean, thanks for sharing your like personal story. It's it's very powerful to hear like the things you went through and how you did that and what supported you. And I obviously like you said, whether it's a layoff or or something else, it's a cr I mean, it feels like crisis for people. And being able to go through this framework to understand where am I, find like reframing, it's it's incredibly helpful.
And I do see how you use it with your clients, like coaching clients. What I'm curious is, I mean, I can I I can't, like honestly, I cannot imagine a leader coming to the team and saying, hey, what's let's talk about metacognition and things like that. It's it's not the language we use in corporate settings. Probably we should, but for now it's not like that. So for for a leader to help
the team go through crisis post crisis. What's the best way to to talk about it?
Savio P. Clemente (22:38.643)
I would say put it through the lens of psychological safety. So psychological safety is what? It's trust and is vulnerability within teams. If you don't allow yourself to be more alert and aware and awake as to what the actual mechanisms, what guides you. I want to clarify when I talk about medication, I don't mean having a sit down. I I love that you brought that up and being and talking about that. That is not gonna fly.
Daria Rudnik (22:42.381)
Mm-hmm.
Savio P. Clemente (23:06.869)
I bet metacognition with yourself because it always starts with yourself. So do the work, you know, behind closed doors that you know it's not in an open conference setting where you're having a Zoom and let's let's talk. That would be really funny, actually, if people actually did that. I mean, it actually would would be pretty disruptive, quite honestly. But no, so it's really going back to the earlier point, it's really about really figuring out exactly where that decision drifted
happen. So I talk about that gap, right? And so really figuring out before the gap widens, how do you actually bring it back to a setting that's more comparable? A lot of my work is really individual focus based and then team based because it's based upon each person within that setting. so I would say to answer your question fully, a large portion of this is really trial and error as well, trying to actually figure out what language to use.
what framework to use, what actually allows individuals to express themselves wholly and fully. and if that's something that a team or an organization is willing to do, not many teams are willing to do that, as you mentioned, you know, you've worked in Deflin in some HR settings and it's not always going to align with what people want to really speak and or do about
vulnerability, I know Brene Brown was really big in it, and she said she would go in teams and she would be horrified because she's like, the language that I I use is not something that people are open to. And so I I that's definitely understandable. But when it comes to especially healthcare, because at the end of the day, what do doctors want to do? They really want to heal. Do they want to do all this administrative, bureaucratic? No, I currently I'm running a interview series with CEOs and CMOs, and I was shocked to find that the US healthcare system
It's estimated up to nine hundred and thirty five billion dollars in healthcare waste. Daria do you think that's just in equipment? No, that's in decision making. That's in pure, poor decision making and poor decision quality after pressure and high stakes disruption. So that's something that we need to tighten.
Daria Rudnik (25:13.25)
That's really critical. I mean, making sure that in healthcare leaders can make right decision at the right time. That's that's for sure. And I mean I love what you said about it you mentioned this relationship and talk about needs. And that's okay. Well we can talk about that in team settings without calling it a medic addition. But it's it's what we can do, even if if team doesn't have language to talk about things yet, by doing this, by keeping like having this conversations, by
Sharing the needs, leaders can share needs, ask for the needs of people. It's again, it's relationship. They tell something, ask questions, people say something back, and that you know how to talk about that.
Savio P. Clemente (25:53.206)
Yeah, because I mean I I tell this people all the time, they're like, well, AI can can take away this and take and can take away that and and streamline this and streamline that. And I'm like, but what is AI really responsible for at the end of the day? If it does something wrong, what's its consequence? There is no consequence. What is AI's high stakes? There is no high stakes. If it doesn't if it has a bad function or a bad output, what happens? Nothing happens. In a human to human
interface or you're dealing with teams and organizations, there's repercussions to actions. There's things that can be done and amended. What can AI actually? There's no severe penalty for AI. So that's where you deal then with compliance issues and regulatory issues when it comes to a huge I'm a huge proponent of AI, but I think it needs to be done responsibly.
Daria Rudnik (26:44.31)
Well, absolutely. I mean that's that's a whole big topic to talk.
Savio P. Clemente (26:47.155)
No, no, some people don't no, some people don't feel that way. Some people feel that you can create an agent and the agent just does something at will and and and that's it. I've been on I've been on cohorts and calls where that is the mindset of them.
Daria Rudnik (26:55.448)
Well
Daria Rudnik (27:00.14)
Well tell them about Deloitte who paid like twice b billion dollar fines for letting AI do the job for them.
Savio P. Clemente (27:08.255)
Yeah, absolutely. Yep. Mm-hmm.
Daria Rudnik (27:09.57)
that's a I mean that's that's an easy thing 'cause I mean what they did was just some report. But when we talk about healthcare or or education or something that's really critical for people's lives. Well obviously yes, AI is not cannot be responsible. People are responsible, people making final calls.
Savio P. Clemente (27:26.313)
Absolutely. And so I say if you yourself don't have that clear and that clarity within to actually figure it out, then what are you leading? Who are you leading? Who's who's actually making those decisions?
Daria Rudnik (27:41.145)
Well, Savio, I mean, that's an incredible conversation. And to HR leaders listening to us, I think like we in HR, we we we we understand where the crisis is happening. We know there's a tough times, we need to kind of push it through, some big projects coming up. You can feel that, you know, when people are stressed. And that's probably the right time to talk with the leaders and say, hey, maybe it's time to talk with your team and see how they feel. What's it you need? Talk about like think about your own needs.
understand where you are, acknowledge the situation and and do something about it, right.
Savio P. Clemente (28:13.589)
Yeah, otherwise burnout happens and that's a word that everyone uses.
Daria Rudnik (28:16.492)
Yeah, I mean no no one wants that. It's yeah, it's it's kind disease pandemic of burnout, that's for sure. Well, is there anything else I haven't asked you but you think it's it's important would be helpful for our audience, I mean?
Savio P. Clemente (28:31.317)
Yeah, I would go back to what I said. Performance doesn't fail first. Clarity does. I just tell people, take that time in order to regroup, figure out different strategies, mindsets. If you want to use Aloha, use it. If you don't, totally fine. But actually figure out ways, well, what's guiding these decisions that you're making? Because at the end of the day, pressure hits us all, high stakes hits us all. But it's really how we co-regulate with one another and how we regulate, self-regulate with ourselves.
Daria Rudnik (29:00.354)
Well, thank you so much, Savio. It was it was an incredible conversation. Thanks for sharing your story. Say thanks for sharing the framework and an approach that leaders, HR people can can take to to balance, to move out, like to move to live through the crisis and to to go and move forward. And to those who listen to us, thanks for listening till the end. P if you like this episode, please give us five stars on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Subscribe to our YouTube channel and stay tuned for the next episodes.
Bye.
Welcome to Built by People Leaders Podcast. I'm your host, Daria Rudnik, and this show is for HR and L&D leaders in fast-growing companies, those building real impact from within and shaping AI ready organizations. Each episode, I sit down with people leaders to talk about how they build strong cultures and shape organizations around them. It's about HR being seen as a true business partner by leaders and by HR themselves. Let's get into that. And today I have a great guest.
Savio Clemente, who's a keynote and TEDx speaker, healthcare leadership strategist, journalist, and board-certified coach, who focuses on how leaders maintain clarity and make better decisions under pressure. His work draws from more than 2,000 interviews with executives, clinicians, and high performers, along with his own experience as a two-time cancer survivor and stem cell transplant recipient. He's best known for his work around what he calls the post-crisis leadership gap.
The period after disruption when performance is still expected, but internally decision making, confidence, and alignment begin to quietly drift. Welcome, Savio.
Savio P. Clemente (01:12.365)
Thank you so much, Daria. I really appreciate it. Let's see what we can serve your clients and your audience today.
Daria Rudnik (01:18.006)
Well yeah, and I have like my first question is what is this l post crisis leadership gap you're talking about?
Savio P. Clemente (01:26.691)
So it's the period after disruption when individuals seem like things are going okay. It's about surviving the crisis. Everyone wants to do that. But that's not where you win or lose. You win or lose when you actually what happens after? How do you recalibrate? How do you reorientate? So that gap is it's a gap, and then it drifts and then it shifts and then it gets wider. It becomes a big chasm. And then it's really hard to get back to normalization in any
fashion, whether that's normalization with yourself or with your team. My central thesis is performance doesn't fail first. Clarity does. So until you have clarity with what's actually happening and how to really navigate that thoroughly and effectively, you're never going to win properly because you're always going to play catch-up.
Daria Rudnik (02:13.056)
It sounds like like when there is a crisis everyone is get just mobilized and let's go, let's do it, let's let's finish this and let's finish it when it's finished. Okay, what's the next step? It kind of it falls apart. Is that is that what you're talking about?
Savio P. Clemente (02:26.356)
Absolutely. It's the anti-climax of the climax. Everyone everyone is in let's emergency mode. You're scanning for threats. You you figured out how to navigate some of those threats or put the fires out, so to speak, but there's still cognitive load, cognitive pressure that underlines and undermines all that decision making moving forward. So as you could imagine, my focus is with healthcare leaders and
What are most of their situations? It's very high stakes because it's themselves, it's their team, it's their organization, but it's also another human being. Like that is serious. And especially post COVID, that is something that everyone is grappling with and actually trying to figure out.
Daria Rudnik (03:10.83)
Well, that's really a very interesting angle because most people focus on on the crisis itself rather than what's happening after that. But tell us a little about about yourself and your journey, and I know you you've had some experiences that probably led to that understanding.
Savio P. Clemente (03:27.658)
Absolutely. So obviously we all love to talk about work. It what gives us meaning. It what allows us to have the lifestyle we want. But we're also human in a very AI-centered world right now. And so everyone wants to know about my background. So unfortunately, in 2014 I came back from a trip and I was noticing stomach distension. I was noticing some belabored breathing.
At that point, I went to a doctor, got a sonogram, and later that night they I heard nurses referring to sending me to the seventh floor, which they call the cancer floor. It was only until a day later that I was informed it was stage three, non-Hodgkins B cell lymphoma, which is a blood cancer. I was in the hospital for 15 days, bedridden for about seven days, two days before I left.
The doctor, medical director came to me and she's like, you need to start something called RCOP chemotherapy. Now, mind you, most people when they're told they have cancer, they have time to breathe and time to figure it out, see what next steps. I was bedridden in the hospital being told all this. This was back in 2014. So I did the RCOP chemotherapy. I did one round in the hospital, five other rounds every three weeks. And in 2014, about five days before Christmas.
I got my remission status and I was in remission for a decade until June of twenty twenty four when I had a relapse and that led to a pretty involved comprehensive healthcare journey, which includes a stem cell transplant. so I spent twenty nine days in the hospital. I lost about twenty six pounds. One night I had to be sent to the ICU to get norphynephrine. and I left the hospital after twenty nine days and
I did optionally an immunotherapy for four and a half months. And then I did about five months of physical therapy. And the person you're speaking with right now is a reflection of all those trials and tribulations. if people are wondering, I did not work during that time because when you have a relapse, especially over butt cl blood cancer, it's called refractory, it's a serious situation. and so it required one hundred percent of my input, energy, and thoughts.
Daria Rudnik (05:50.498)
That is really I mean, really hard experience. I cannot imagine that.
Daria Rudnik (05:57.751)
Is it somehow connected to what you're like helping leaders right now and and how?
Savio P. Clemente (06:04.704)
Yeah, absolutely. So the initial cancer, I waited five years until I was a remission because everyone kept telling me, including my oncologist, that after five years it's less likely to come back. So I didn't want to build something and have it crumble. And so at that moment in time, I had my n certified, I was board certified in health and wellness coaching. I was a writer. I became I sort of put more thought leadership out there. So became an official journalist. at this point I've interviewed over 2,000 leaders.
But it really wasn't until my stem cell transplant in 2024 that I really saw the gaps being in the hospital, seeing things that fortunately for me went right, but also could go left. because I was a witness to other people's experiences. I, when the nurses would come to do their rounds, I treated the experience as a field study. I know that sounds odd, and most people listening to this would be like, wait a minute, you're like,
To all these machines, they're doing vitals every four hours, the doctors are doing their rounds, and you're doing field study. Daria, what else can you really do? And I urge leaders and individuals listening to this and viewing this to actually allow yourself and submit yourself and surrender to yourself to the experience at hand. So I could have been really bitter, I could have blamed the situation, but that's not really how my personal personality type is.
I'm more of someone who says, okay, this happened to me. Let me not focus on the wound. Let me focus on the walk. Let me focus on what I need to do to self regulate, to create what I call psychological distancing. So distance creates a little buffer between me and the situation. And a lot of people who listen to this story will think, well, gosh, man, his story is really dramatic. I I I've never had cancer. I don't know. Yes, my story is dramatic, but you can apply this to any situation.
Job layoff, business collapse, divorce, please, socially, what what we're going through, politically, what we're going through, AI disruption, technological disruption. I often tell people that the thing that really gave me a lot of core strength and insight was these two anchors. And I learned it, what I call my exile period in the hospital, was silence and stillness. And I don't think as thought leaders, as leaders, as people who build, people who
Savio P. Clemente (08:29.01)
create, I don't think we give ourselves enough grace and time and devotion to silence and stillness. I often tell my clients, because I'm a you know board certified wellness coach that you have to carve out those minutes or those seconds in your day because if you are just not regulating in the right proper way, then that's it that's gonna be off key to a lot of people. Because at the end of the day, you've worked in institutions where corporations people think leadership is only in those
pockets. No, leadership is how people see you, how people want to mirror you, how people want to follow you. And so if you yourself are not fully focused on actually creating that type of environment, then you're not leading in the right
Daria Rudnik (09:12.142)
Yeah. Yeah. And people follow that path as well 'cause you're a setting example.
Well, you say that there's a crisis and kind of people get mobilized during crisis, but when crisis and stops, there is a gap. So like for you personally and for your clients, what is it you do when you overcome the crisis? You you won. You got it. What's next?
Savio P. Clemente (09:38.286)
What's next is actually trying to figure out how do I intentionally make the right steps forward? Because if you want to move in a certain direction and say your team or those individuals are not actually on the same page with that, how can you effectively create those circumstances in order for anything to flourish properly? So the first key is to really do an assessment, figure out exactly what's happening. And I did a TEDx talk.
about two years before I had my relapse. And my talk was called Seven Minutes to Wellness, How to Love Your Inner Stranger. And Daria, people say to me, like, what are you talking about, inner stranger? And I'm like, I left it ambiguous on purpose. And they're like, okay, so what's your inner stranger? I'm like, well, my inner stranger was, if I have to be honest, that young adult who actually never felt completely rooted or grounded. I I was friends with a lot of people. I wasn't bullied. I wasn't an outcast, but I never really felt connected.
To things and people. And she's like, I get it. Actually, my inner stranger is really that person who that like executive, professional businesswoman that I just can't seem to reach, or that great mother, or that great sibling that I want to be, but I just can't seem to sort of hone in on that. And so I have a simple lens of practice of framework. My framework is called the adaptive resilience framework. And really it's about spotting the signals and the patterns.
That affect us in many different ways that we are just not willing to see. And so my lens is called the aloha reboot. Aloha, as we all know in in Hawaiian, means hello. So it's a hello to your inner self. And so it's very simple. It's an acronym. A stands for acknowledge. So acknowledge where you are. Like I was in the hospital, tied to these machines, nurses are coming every four hours. This is my life. It doesn't have to be my complete life, but this is what's happening at the moment. So just
Whether that's a word vomit, typing it out, writing it out, whatever you need to do, just acknowledge what's actually happening. L stands for listening. So listen to your inner self. in Hawaiian, as you can imagine with my relapse, I've studied literally everything when it comes to healing, both mainstream, because I had a stem cell transplant, and also things of an integrative, holistic manner as well, and things of an ancient manner. So I grew up Catholic, but in college back way, way back ago, un up until now.
Savio P. Clemente (12:03.788)
I've studied everything from Buddhism to Jewish mysticism all the way down to Vedic philosophy. And so in Hawaiian, the kahunas, the kings of Hawaii, they believe that not only does the body send you sensations, but it actually has language, has consciousness, it's actually trying to tell us things. So you need to be silent and still in order to actually figure out what the body is saying. So they suggest talking to the body. I I don't suggest people do that in front of other people.
Daria Rudnik (12:31.582)
Yeah.
Savio P. Clemente (12:31.882)
It seems it seems a little strange that people don't even be talking to each other. but just try to figure out and listen deeply exactly what's happening. O stands for opening. So no matter what your belief system, even if you don't have one and you're atheist, it doesn't matter. You're just exploring yourself. So open up to that wisdom and that insight that comes through. H stands for harnessing. So harness that, make the mental connection, see what works, what doesn't work, because not everything's gonna work. And A stands for acting, act on that. But there's a caveat, you have to have courage to act.
in large portions of the work that I do, there's a central theme or posit that states it's called the models of change. It states that it's not that individuals don't want to change, they just don't know how to change. Most people want to, they just don't have the tools. So they don't know if they're thinking about change, pre-contemplation, in change, they're in change and thinking about relapsing. So you have to actually have the courage in order to do that and have the vulnerability to do that. And so it's the aloha reboot, it's seven minutes.
an executive once told me I don't have seven minutes, which I thought was strange, but hey, to each their own. So I'm like, take one of those, practice it for one minute a day, and after five days you'll have the aloha. So
Daria Rudnik (13:43.563)
Yeah, yeah, I love that I love the framework. So it's acknowledgement, listening, opening, harnessing, and acting. And I mean, I'm biased to action. So kind of I like that you have that at the end. And I I agree that there is a the need to have courage to actually act. Because we can't be in this situation where okay, we need to unlike I know something needs to be changed. I know I need to do something, but it it can be scary again, especially when crisis is over. There's like so much uncertainty. What's the next step?
Savio P. Clemente (13:54.36)
Course.
Daria Rudnik (14:12.704)
Do how do I make it right? So yeah.
Savio P. Clemente (14:14.678)
Yeah. And and and you know this in in in the work that you do with comes to people. I mean, most of my work is really centered upon the actual person, the human within that particular role. And most people are wearing masks. I'm just gonna be blunt and honest about it. I I can share a story three months before my cancer relapse, my editor sent me on an assignment. Now I cover health, wellness, and and leadership. But he said to me, Savio
Would you like to go to the Oscars red carpet and cover that? And I'm like, what? He's like, Yeah. So I had a friend who lives in LA and he's like, Yeah, I would love. So he took me to Malibu and Venice, never been. This is before the fires. and I h hung out with him. And then I covered the red carpet at at the Oscars. And what was interesting to me was that when the celebrities came, Daria, you know, I'm there with all like the big entertainment publications. And
I realize something. my God, they're still acting. They're acting for me. They're acting for their manager, their public their their you know, their their handlers, the photographers. And I'm like, my God, like I can't unsee things. I'm a coach, I'm a speaker, I'm a journalist. So I'm like, they're still acting. And so it actually mirrors what I see actually when I do this work is that especially healthcare leaders, they have to know the answers. They have to be the one in charge. There's compliance issues, there's bureaucratic issues, and so then they have a facade.
Daria Rudnik (15:19.939)
Yeah.
Savio P. Clemente (15:42.476)
They actually play this role and then they say, I'm burned out or this is soul sucking. And I tell people all the time, why can't it be soul searching? Why do you always have to feel like things are take being taken away from you rather than pouring into it?
Daria Rudnik (15:56.235)
I mean, because there's a lot of responsibility. Like they feel this weight of responsibility they need to do that, they need to deliver, especially in healthcare when there's so much depends on those professionals. So in organizational settings, like we to our listeners, HR in fast-growing companies, multiple industries, many industries. So how can you implement whether it's this aloha principles or I mean something else? How do you make sure that managers
can make decisions after crisis?
Savio P. Clemente (16:30.37)
I think the first thing is what I intimated earlier, which is figure out what the signals and the patterns are. So that sounds easier said than done, right? But actually what's actually triggering things within you? What's actually triggering things in how you handle the situation? So for example, you if you have a big initiative, beyond the fact that you're just so excited about it, survey your team actually. Figure out exactly not only who's on the right page, but how they actually feel about it. Oftentimes the work that I do, it's always like, Well, this is new. This
I've never dealt with this before. Yeah, no one has dealt with certain things before. But I always say to them, I want you to actually track back at a time in your life, not when you've experienced the same situation, but when you've experienced the same feeling. I want you to actually go back and tell me is there a time in your life where that feeling was similar? And how did you resource that that situation at that moment in time? Because then that opens the doorway and the pathway to actually figuring out,
I can do X, Y, and Z. I mean, we all work in business settings where things are complicated. It's not it's not very sort of linear. It's not very clear. It's often very muddied. And there's always individuals that have an opinion within said initiative or said situation. So that's first. Second thing is I want you to name it. I don't want you to name something for the sake of naming it, or I don't want you to name something to share identity. I want you to name it because then you can actually
create a reprieve. You can create actually that distance, that psychological distance that I mentioned. And also it also allows you to actually figure out for yourself, okay, you can categorize it. You can actually say that's actually what's actually happening. And now we want to move further along from that situation. Another thing, and this gets into the realm of something that I was thrust upon in in the hospital bed, which is this idea of metacognition.
This idea of who's doing the thinking of the thinking. Oftentimes we're just on automatic, especially in business settings. We we we know the processes, we hit play, and it kind of goes in, disruption happens, crisis happens, then we're the we're doing a rewind, and then we're doing a fast forward. And so for me, it's really about who's doing the thinking for me in the hospital. Well, who's the savio that's in the bed? And who's this other person whose mental acuity is still there?
Savio P. Clemente (18:50.679)
Who's still vibrant emotionally, who still has his psychological faculties handled well. And so allow yourself to actually figure that out. And then when crisis hits and you're past the crisis, create an adaptive resilience mindset. So a lot of people know about resilience as bouncing back, but mine was actually not only through lived experience, but actually figuring out how do I remain flexible and make the connections as I'm going along. How do I actually figure out for myself, well, what do I actually need and what do I don't?
What do I don't need? I I took the liberty one day and just picture this, not feeling well. I'm in a hospital bed. I think it was like day 16. I my hair now my hair shaved because I like the look. but like scraggly beard, you know, have all these punctures on my body, and thirteen or fourteen doctors and nurses come in the room to do the rounds, and I say to them,
Yeah, I've asked all these nurses that have come in the last two weeks to my bedside to do the vitals. And they've actually said to me, Everyone wants to rush to go home. and then they invariably come back. They have an infection or the complication. And I said, I don't want to come back. So I would love to go home, but I would rather you send me home when you feel it's necessary. So have once again that courage to do that. Because large part of ways, and I know I'm mirroring this idea of
wellness or health with business settings. But in a large part of ways if we don't tell people our needs, they're not going to figure it out for themselves. And I knew, having dealt with cancer the first time 10 years prior, that it's a relational my situation. It's not just the doctor's healing me. It's we're healing each other. I'm learning from them. They're learning from me. It's an ongoing thing. So if I don't surrender or submit to that, if I don't, for example, what I also did is I reframed, I mean
big believer in in reframing things, I reframed the chemo not as poison as an elixir. I just saw it as a scientifically designed medicinal item that I'm allowing. And instead of seeing it as that, I saw it as an elixir, as they call it mana in the Bible, something that's that's life force driven in my body. And I allow that to transform me. Cause at the end of the day, at least for me, if I'm looking back at my journey through, you know,
Savio P. Clemente (21:18.113)
from a professional lens and from a personal lens, I realized that it was never about climbing the summit. It was always about who I became as I was climbing. It was about who and what is actually shaping these experiences.
Daria Rudnik (21:34.681)
Well, I mean, thanks for sharing your like personal story. It's it's very powerful to hear like the things you went through and how you did that and what supported you. And I obviously like you said, whether it's a layoff or or something else, it's a cr I mean, it feels like crisis for people. And being able to go through this framework to understand where am I, find like reframing, it's it's incredibly helpful.
And I do see how you use it with your clients, like coaching clients. What I'm curious is, I mean, I can I I can't, like honestly, I cannot imagine a leader coming to the team and saying, hey, what's let's talk about metacognition and things like that. It's it's not the language we use in corporate settings. Probably we should, but for now it's not like that. So for for a leader to help
the team go through crisis post crisis. What's the best way to to talk about it?
Savio P. Clemente (22:38.643)
I would say put it through the lens of psychological safety. So psychological safety is what? It's trust and is vulnerability within teams. If you don't allow yourself to be more alert and aware and awake as to what the actual mechanisms, what guides you. I want to clarify when I talk about medication, I don't mean having a sit down. I I love that you brought that up and being and talking about that. That is not gonna fly.
Daria Rudnik (22:42.381)
Mm-hmm.
Savio P. Clemente (23:06.869)
I bet metacognition with yourself because it always starts with yourself. So do the work, you know, behind closed doors that you know it's not in an open conference setting where you're having a Zoom and let's let's talk. That would be really funny, actually, if people actually did that. I mean, it actually would would be pretty disruptive, quite honestly. But no, so it's really going back to the earlier point, it's really about really figuring out exactly where that decision drifted
happen. So I talk about that gap, right? And so really figuring out before the gap widens, how do you actually bring it back to a setting that's more comparable? A lot of my work is really individual focus based and then team based because it's based upon each person within that setting. so I would say to answer your question fully, a large portion of this is really trial and error as well, trying to actually figure out what language to use.
what framework to use, what actually allows individuals to express themselves wholly and fully. and if that's something that a team or an organization is willing to do, not many teams are willing to do that, as you mentioned, you know, you've worked in Deflin in some HR settings and it's not always going to align with what people want to really speak and or do about
vulnerability, I know Brene Brown was really big in it, and she said she would go in teams and she would be horrified because she's like, the language that I I use is not something that people are open to. And so I I that's definitely understandable. But when it comes to especially healthcare, because at the end of the day, what do doctors want to do? They really want to heal. Do they want to do all this administrative, bureaucratic? No, I currently I'm running a interview series with CEOs and CMOs, and I was shocked to find that the US healthcare system
It's estimated up to nine hundred and thirty five billion dollars in healthcare waste. Daria do you think that's just in equipment? No, that's in decision making. That's in pure, poor decision making and poor decision quality after pressure and high stakes disruption. So that's something that we need to tighten.
Daria Rudnik (25:13.25)
That's really critical. I mean, making sure that in healthcare leaders can make right decision at the right time. That's that's for sure. And I mean I love what you said about it you mentioned this relationship and talk about needs. And that's okay. Well we can talk about that in team settings without calling it a medic addition. But it's it's what we can do, even if if team doesn't have language to talk about things yet, by doing this, by keeping like having this conversations, by
Sharing the needs, leaders can share needs, ask for the needs of people. It's again, it's relationship. They tell something, ask questions, people say something back, and that you know how to talk about that.
Savio P. Clemente (25:53.206)
Yeah, because I mean I I tell this people all the time, they're like, well, AI can can take away this and take and can take away that and and streamline this and streamline that. And I'm like, but what is AI really responsible for at the end of the day? If it does something wrong, what's its consequence? There is no consequence. What is AI's high stakes? There is no high stakes. If it doesn't if it has a bad function or a bad output, what happens? Nothing happens. In a human to human
interface or you're dealing with teams and organizations, there's repercussions to actions. There's things that can be done and amended. What can AI actually? There's no severe penalty for AI. So that's where you deal then with compliance issues and regulatory issues when it comes to a huge I'm a huge proponent of AI, but I think it needs to be done responsibly.
Daria Rudnik (26:44.31)
Well, absolutely. I mean that's that's a whole big topic to talk.
Savio P. Clemente (26:47.155)
No, no, some people don't no, some people don't feel that way. Some people feel that you can create an agent and the agent just does something at will and and and that's it. I've been on I've been on cohorts and calls where that is the mindset of them.
Daria Rudnik (26:55.448)
Well
Daria Rudnik (27:00.14)
Well tell them about Deloitte who paid like twice b billion dollar fines for letting AI do the job for them.
Savio P. Clemente (27:08.255)
Yeah, absolutely. Yep. Mm-hmm.
Daria Rudnik (27:09.57)
that's a I mean that's that's an easy thing 'cause I mean what they did was just some report. But when we talk about healthcare or or education or something that's really critical for people's lives. Well obviously yes, AI is not cannot be responsible. People are responsible, people making final calls.
Savio P. Clemente (27:26.313)
Absolutely. And so I say if you yourself don't have that clear and that clarity within to actually figure it out, then what are you leading? Who are you leading? Who's who's actually making those decisions?
Daria Rudnik (27:41.145)
Well, Savio, I mean, that's an incredible conversation. And to HR leaders listening to us, I think like we in HR, we we we we understand where the crisis is happening. We know there's a tough times, we need to kind of push it through, some big projects coming up. You can feel that, you know, when people are stressed. And that's probably the right time to talk with the leaders and say, hey, maybe it's time to talk with your team and see how they feel. What's it you need? Talk about like think about your own needs.
understand where you are, acknowledge the situation and and do something about it, right.
Savio P. Clemente (28:13.589)
Yeah, otherwise burnout happens and that's a word that everyone uses.
Daria Rudnik (28:16.492)
Yeah, I mean no no one wants that. It's yeah, it's it's kind disease pandemic of burnout, that's for sure. Well, is there anything else I haven't asked you but you think it's it's important would be helpful for our audience, I mean?
Savio P. Clemente (28:31.317)
Yeah, I would go back to what I said. Performance doesn't fail first. Clarity does. I just tell people, take that time in order to regroup, figure out different strategies, mindsets. If you want to use Aloha, use it. If you don't, totally fine. But actually figure out ways, well, what's guiding these decisions that you're making? Because at the end of the day, pressure hits us all, high stakes hits us all. But it's really how we co-regulate with one another and how we regulate, self-regulate with ourselves.
Daria Rudnik (29:00.354)
Well, thank you so much, Savio. It was it was an incredible conversation. Thanks for sharing your story. Say thanks for sharing the framework and an approach that leaders, HR people can can take to to balance, to move out, like to move to live through the crisis and to to go and move forward. And to those who listen to us, thanks for listening till the end. P if you like this episode, please give us five stars on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Subscribe to our YouTube channel and stay tuned for the next episodes.
Bye.