Why Conflict Isn't a Problem to Fix: Dr. Irvine Nugent on Building Conflict Capacity as Your People Team Scales
Dr. Irvine Nugent is co-founder of ConflictEQ and a former nonprofit CEO with a Ph.D. in Management who helps leaders navigate pressure and difficult conversations without losing clarity or connection. In this episode, Dr. Nugent argues that conflict is not a signal something has gone wrong—it is the natural friction of differing opinions and perspectives, and it is the fuel scaling companies need for creativity and problem-solving. He describes his own turning point as a "recovering conflict coward": a key employee quit because the team was not having the conversations it needed to have.
For People leaders at companies in the 100–1,500 employee range, Dr. Nugent addresses a familiar breakdown. As headcount grows, informal communication stops working, HR teams get pulled in as the constant referee, and leadership meetings turn either performatively calm or aggressively winner-take-all. Both patterns stall the decisions high-growth companies cannot afford to delay.
For People leaders at companies in the 100–1,500 employee range, Dr. Nugent addresses a familiar breakdown. As headcount grows, informal communication stops working, HR teams get pulled in as the constant referee, and leadership meetings turn either performatively calm or aggressively winner-take-all. Both patterns stall the decisions high-growth companies cannot afford to delay.
Challenges Addressed
- HR as the permanent referee: Dr. Nugent describes how People teams at scaleups burn out because managers escalate every interpersonal tension instead of handling it themselves, expecting HR to resolve conflict "out of a puff of air."
- Calm meetings hiding cynicism: Dr. Nugent explains that high engagement scores and agreeable leadership meetings often mask resignation—people stopped raising ideas because past attempts went nowhere, which stalls critical initiatives like AI adoption and org redesign.
- Two instinctive threat responses: Dr. Nugent frames conflict avoidance (freeze) and conflict aggression (fight) as untrained instincts that both create destructive patterns as the old "we're a family" culture stops scaling.
Actionable Takeaways
- Shift People Ops from referee to capacity-builder: Dr. Nugent advises People leaders to invest in conflict-capacity training so managers can hold hard conversations themselves, rather than escalating every tension to HR.
- Open with pressure, not correction: When addressing a colleague's unhealthy behavior, start with "What are you overwhelmed with right now?" instead of "Your behavior is a problem." Surfacing the underlying stress opens a real conversation.
- Map your triggers before you regulate: Dr. Nugent recommends writing down your specific emotional triggers and the patterns that follow—for example, asking "Am I 10-angry or 4-angry?"—because self-awareness alone introduces choice and breaks automatic responses.
Questions This Episode Answers
- How do I stop being the HR referee for every team conflict? Dr. Nugent recommends building conflict capacity across your leadership team through realistic, tension-filled training rather than staying the person who resolves every dispute. When managers develop their own skills, People teams stop being pulled in as the default fixer.
- My engagement scores are high but no one raises hard truths—is that a red flag? Yes. Dr. Nugent warns that surface calm often hides resignation and cynicism. If no one debates ideas in a leadership meeting at a company facing market pressure, conflict avoidance has calcified, and important decisions are stalling beneath the quiet.
- How do I give tough feedback to my CEO? Dr. Nugent advises learning how the executive prefers to consume information, pre-framing your feedback with genuine concern for the organization, and accepting short-term discomfort. The truth may not land immediately, but it holds weight over time when events prove it out.
Links & Resources Mentioned:
- Connect with Dr. Irvine Nugent on LinkedIn, where he shares educational conflict-management resources website with a free conflict-response assessment: https://www.conflicteq.com/
Daria Rudnik (00:02.117)
Welcome to Build by People Leaders. I'm host, Daddy Rudnik, and this show is for HR and LD leaders, those building real impact from within and shaping AI radio organizations. Each episode, I sit down with people leaders to talk about how they build strong culture and shape the organizations around them. It's about HR being seen as a true business partner by leaders and by HR themselves. So let's get into that. And today I have a very special guest, Dr. Irvin.
Nugent is a leadership and conflict management expert, keynote speaker and co-founder of ConflictEQ. A former nonprofit CEO with a PhD in management, he helps leaders and organizations build the capacity to navigate pressure, difficult conversations, and workplace tensions without losing clarity or connection. Growing up in Northern Ireland during the Troubles shaped his belief that conflict is not the problem, how people respond under pressure is.
Welcome, Irvin. Thanks for joining us today.
Dr. Irvine Nugent (01:01.922)
Thank you, Darren. Thanks for the invitation. I'm looking forward to your conversation.
Daria Rudnik (01:05.616)
Yeah, me too. I mean it's such a hot topic 'cause the emotions are really heated. What's the one thing like every person needs to know about conflicts?
Dr. Irvine Nugent (01:18.914)
The one thing about conflict is I think we've grown up culturally to say that in leadership or in organizations when there's conflict, something's gone wrong. And I say that's bogus. It's actually a sign of something that is perfectly normal and to be expected.
Daria Rudnik (01:36.693)
I love it. I love it. It's so I mean it's so interesting. I'm so excited to talk about that. But before that, please tell us about your journey. Tell us about yourself.
Dr. Irvine Nugent (01:44.418)
Well, I I I I grew up with conflict all around me, so it's really not surprising that this is the work that I do. I grew up in, as you said, in a time of the troubles in Northern Ireland, which even itself is like we called it the troubles. It was a little more than that. but but you know, I grew up with this background and and you would think I grew up with a with a knowledge of how to do conflict well, and actually the opposite is totally true.
I grew up avoiding conflict. Conflict for me was something bad. Conflict was to be avoided. And I carried that throughout my life, including when I was CEO of an organization. And in that organization, I had a pivotal moment where a key employee came to me one day and said, I quit. And when I asked him why, he said, because we're not having the important conversations we need to have. And really was an indictment of my own leadership.
And that started me on this journey of why am I so avoidant of conflict and how can I change that? And zoom on to today, when really the core of my work is actually working in conflict. So I like to say I'm a recovering conflict coward. And and now I just find this area fascinating and the transformation it can create.
Daria Rudnik (03:06.755)
It really is like very interesting and like I ask I ask personal questions like from my own experience. I hate conflict. I I avoid conflict. I don't like conflict. However, like I was thinking about that and I was kind of thinking, I mean, maybe it's not conflict that I'm avoiding, maybe it's that I'm avoiding aggression and aggressive behavior. Is there a difference? Like what is conflict? Is it always about aggression or what is it?
Dr. Irvine Nugent (03:14.273)
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Irvine Nugent (03:33.486)
So that's a great question. So here's how I like to call conflict. Conflict emerges with the friction of differences of opinions and outlooks and perspectives. And when you think about that, well, wow, that's the most natural thing. You bring two human people together, there's going to be difference because it's part of humanity. It's beautiful. And that friction can cause conflict, can cause conflict. And what you're describing is where conflict becomes uneasy is.
When we look at that conflict and we see that, well, if I go down this route, what's the cost? And so often it is, well, it's going to cost me a friendship, or it's going to lead to a difficult conversation, or I would just rather have peace. I don't want to have the tension. And so we imagine all these consequences that are going to happen. And and therefore, one of the behaviors is the avoidance. We we just don't want to enter into the conflict because.
It's messy, and I don't want to be involved in the mess.
Daria Rudnik (04:37.373)
Mm-hmm. So do I hear you right? So conflict is when you experience this tension, there is a risk of losing something. And there's if if there is a no if there is no risk, it's not a conflict yet. But if there is a risk and you need to have the courage to go into that. So what is the fine line between like the constructive conflict when you have this tension, you talk to people, you go, you embrace this risk, but you're not breaking relationships.
Dr. Irvine Nugent (04:45.356)
Yes.
Dr. Irvine Nugent (04:50.337)
Yes, yes.
Dr. Irvine Nugent (04:56.076)
Yes.
Dr. Irvine Nugent (05:08.053)
Yeah, it's it's really interesting. You know, I always say, why is it in some conversations with certain people, we can have deep conversations and talk about our differences. And it's we don't feel that tension. And yet there's others that, whoa, the the thought of going there, it's like there's a heaviness, an emotional weight to it. And I think it is tied up with the perception that we will lose something. And you know, there is no
Perfect line here. There's not a clarity. I think at times what we want is this route through conflict that will not be messy. And I'm afraid that conversations and deep conversations and about differences, et cetera, sometimes we step over the line. Sometimes we'll say things that the other person might not like. Sometimes they'll say things that we don't like. That's all part of the communication. So it's it's not that, it's that it's that I think we feel we can't recover. That if we
Say something that offends the other person or steps the line, then we've kind of gone a bridge too far and we'll never recover. And that's what we have to try and step back from. That in any conversation, it's you're able to open sensitive topics, to say things that might the person might not like, but then to recognize that and then also to continue the conversation.
Daria Rudnik (06:32.645)
In organizations, like I'm seeing two opposites. Like one is we're all in peace, we're like a family, let's not raise uncomfortable issues, let's just be what it is. Like it is. And the other one is aggressive, conflict, culture because yes, we need to push through, we need to go. If you're not keeping up, you're out, things like that. What do you think? I mean I don't have a question, but
Dr. Irvine Nugent (07:01.493)
It's a great observation because I think it goes back to how we evolved as human beings. That in many ways, I think what makes conflict difficult is because we feel under threat at certain times. And when we feel threatened, there are some instinctive behaviors that we turn to. Some people want to freeze or to pull back, and that's the avoiders. You know, it's like, my God, I don't like this. I don't want to avoid it. Just oof, just make it go away.
Or else, as some of these will say, they'll deal with it themselves and and it'll go away, you know. And then the second is to move in to fight. So sometimes, you know, and I think those two tensions are showing up in the organizations that some people they move in with aggression that that that there's one winner, and the winner has to be me. It's my way. And and the other one is I just don't want to get involved. Now both of those can lead to very destructive behaviors.
The first one, of course, no one's listening, and it's my way. The second one is we're not going to even discuss the topics with tension. So both ways can create harmful cultures, but they're very instinctive. And that's what makes them tricky because they are so instinctive.
Daria Rudnik (08:19.165)
So when again in the organization, a leader, HR professional, whoever, I see that behavior in some people. This one is aggressive, this one is avoidance. How do you again, how do you address that? How do you how do you change that?
Dr. Irvine Nugent (08:27.499)
Mm.
Dr. Irvine Nugent (08:36.651)
Yeah. So I think I think there's a few things to say. The first thing is we were never taught how to manage conflict. We grew up, what I say is with a conflict story. Where we learned about conflict was in our families and in our society. And sometimes our family had a healthy conflict culture. Most of the time our families don't. So we learn there. And so no one we never did a course in high school or or or college, you know, how to manage conflicts. A very, very slight.
People probably did it, a number of people. So, first of all, is to understand people don't have any training or awareness of how to deal with it. So that's a start. So the thing is, I'm seeing I've seen approach an aggression or an avoidance. And so the first thing is rather than say, you're doing that wrong, it's like, what education do you need? What training do you need to help you manage things differently? Because let me tell you this: most people don't want to do what they're doing.
Because they know it's not successful. It's very uncomfortable. And then for HR directors, see, the problem with HR directors is they're always being dragged in as the referee. So if something goes wrong or whatever, the HR's pulled in. And what we say is: you know, poor HR directors, what would be great would be if people had their own capacity to deal with these conversations rather than the HR.
constantly being the referee. So I think a part of HR's role is to provide the resources and the training to make sure that leaders don't have to pull them in time and time again, but they're strengthened enough to have these difficult conversations successful.
Daria Rudnik (10:20.339)
I mean I that that is so true. I mean I I really recognize that. Like managers coming to you, Hey, I have a problem, go fix it. It's not just be a referee, just go fix it.
Dr. Irvine Nugent (10:26.955)
Yeah. Absolutely. We'll fix it. You fix it. I know. Except no one gives the the HR director a magic wand to fix it, you know? It's it's but but everyone feels the HR director w out of a puff of air will suddenly resolve this conflict.
Daria Rudnik (10:35.279)
Absolutely.
Daria Rudnik (10:42.855)
But if you are an employee or a peer and and you you see someone is behaving unhealthy, some someone's unhealthy behaviour, but th they're doing all right with their leadership team with the leaders. What's the best approach?
Dr. Irvine Nugent (11:01.287)
so let I mean let's be real, first of all. I mean, there are power dynamics at work, there's political dimensions at work, sometimes you feel that it's a risk too far to say something, and you gotta respect that. But I think if you feel comfortable enough with the person, I always like to say, you know, could you arrange kind of a conversation with the person?
And instead of really starting with, hey, I saw you do this and that's really ugly, you know, just say, you know, start with the general thing, hey, what are you struggling with at the moment? You know, what's tough for you? Because the reality is, I find that leaders are trying to do a good job, but you you mentioned at the start, people are just so overwhelmed. And at times people don't even recognize the behaviors they're in.
And I think a beautiful way to start a conversation is just to say that, hey, what what are you overwhelmed with at the moment? What's we really struggling with? Because then that kind of lets them talk about, hey, it's this project or this team is driving me mad. And I said, and and like like what what's happening to you? How are you managing that? And then there's a door open to say that. He said, Yeah, you know, I if if you're open to some feedback, I actually saw that. I I really see that you're struggling with that. you know.
What could we do about that? Is there anything, any support that I could give you? And I think then that begins the conversation rather than starting with, Hey, you shouldn't be that aggressive or hey, you're not having the conversation.
Daria Rudnik (12:38.407)
I like how you start with like you're not fixing the person, you're trying to help them with solving like their challenges and that is opening up the conversation.
Dr. Irvine Nugent (12:47.659)
Because if we really yeah, you know, because I think, Daria, if we really want to solve the problem, we have to help them develop the capacity to have better conversations and to deal with conflict. And and pointing out what they're doing wrong as a beginning is not going to help.
Daria Rudnik (13:05.491)
Well, you mentioned like building this capacity to it it takes time. It's it's a it's a learning curve. I don't know, breathe in, breathe out, like managing like understanding your emotions, managing your emotions. But we all know the current realities of our modern workplaces, which is go, go, go, go, deliver, deliver, deliver. Now, yesterday.
How like is it possible to to build this capacity?
Dr. Irvine Nugent (13:33.396)
I I think first of all, yes. I I I absolutely believe it is possible. Is it easy, simple, and quick? No. And there is no 10-minute solution to having a better conversation. But people who are committed to some self-awareness learning, I have been amazed at how quickly some of that self-awareness modifies some of the behaviors they're in. Very quickly.
And so it seems a long, long process. However, just some awareness around what are my emotions in the moment, what triggers me, just some like like writing down here are triggers that get me. Because once you become aware of patterns, and we are people of patterns, once we become aware of patterns, we introduce, and this is what we want to do, just a little bit of space for more choice. and that's really what we're trying to do. So
I I think you can see results quickly, but I'm not going to lie to you, I'm not going to say that it's the easiest thing in the world.
Daria Rudnik (14:42.653)
So is it about emotional regulation or is there something else there?
Dr. Irvine Nugent (14:47.287)
So I think emotional regulation is part of it. So I think part of it is before you can even regulate emotions, you have to understand what emotion am I in? Some people have very limited emotional vocabulary. You know, I'm angry. Well, what does that mean? I don't know, I'm just angry, you know? And so to help people understand, well, are you a 10 angry or a five angry or a four angry? There's nuances in all that. so that the second one is what triggered that anger? Like, why are you angry?
Most people are angry, and if you ask them why are you angry, it's because they can't really name the moment. They're in a mix of of anger about everything. Well, everything just angers me. So so understanding that is really helpful. And then some practical exercises for modulating the emotion that you're in is helpful. And then some other practical awareness about what are your to-go-to behaviors that
really are destructive when it comes to conversations? And what are some behaviors that you could build upon that are more constructive and open? And I think a knowledge of all those can really help a person change the dynamics of relationships and conversations.
Daria Rudnik (15:59.176)
Mm-hmm. Well, these are obviously great tools kind of to to remember and practice. And once you practice, your brain learns and you kind of remember that and it becomes at least you you're able to notice when when you go off the path. And it's more visible when like you see the aggression, you experience the aggression, you have some strong emotions, you can recognize that and maybe address that and say, I have a problem, I need to fix it. On the other hand, this quiet side of avoidance.
Dr. Irvine Nugent (16:09.623)
Mm.
Dr. Irvine Nugent (16:14.519)
Yeah.
Daria Rudnik (16:28.719)
It's less visible, it's less recognizable. Like I've seen teams when people say, Yes, I agree, yes, yeah, sure. All good, all fine, no problem. Engagement surveys, top, top, top, top, top, top, top marks for everything. First of all, how do you recognize that there is a problem? Or maybe they're just nice people.
Dr. Irvine Nugent (16:50.813)
I have I have a bias, and my bias is that that if there is a conflict avoidance, then meetings are the most boring thing possible because no one's ever discussing anything that's important and everyone's just agreeing with everyone else. And that is not an environment where you have ingenuity, creativity, because in order to advance and I mean, we are the world is is is in the midst of
Difficult problems. Companies are dealing with difficult problems. We have AI coming in. God knows what's going to happen there. So these are massive problems. And if we're having nice meetings where everyone's agreeing, something's wrong. So so for big problems, we need big ideas. There's going to be clashing of ideas. And I think people need but I do agree with you that there's a subtlety there that if things are calm, why rock the boat? And I think
I think when you dig a little below that calmness, I have gone into teams and I've interviewed all the team members, and on the surface, everything is calm. And yet you get beneath the surface, and all of a sudden, people have either just resigned themselves. Well, you know, I tried bringing up ideas before and it just went nowhere. What's the point? So there's this, it's almost like a resignation, and you know, and that's a bigger problem.
Because I think you've got cynicism, resignation, and on the surface things are fine, but below the surface we've got a lot of problems.
Daria Rudnik (18:30.575)
So on organizational level, what do you suggest? Like train everything on everyone on conflict management, emotional regulation? Like what how do we as organization build this capacity to have those constructive conflicts?
Dr. Irvine Nugent (18:50.573)
So I think at an organizational letter organizational level, I think there there's there's two problems. There's there are in every organization what I would call hot conflict. there are two people that are or teams that are that that that really the tension has risen above the surface and it's visible and it's impacting. And so I think there needs to be intervention there. I think there needs to some help helping the team and the individuals grow.
through that Pacific contra conflict, but then also grow the skills for future conversations. And then I I would suggest to organizations that the ability to deal with conflict is a key skill set that is needed in this century and going forward because of the because of the the the the tumult and the the change that's coming. And I think a organization that's visionary will introduce some
training to really build up that capacity within leadership. And we can do that through, you know, training and coaching. and and really not just your traditional, hey, we're going to have a day of conflict management training and now I'm, you know, because that's useless. The problem with a lot of EQ training and conflict management training is it's done in a classroom where everything is perfectly fine. We're in a day, we've got a way, and then we go into a situation it's like, what was that in the class? I don't remember. So
You've got to make the training realistic in that that you're training under pressure. You're training with real tension. And that's really what makes the difference of actually coaching in the difficulty and creating some training exercises that are actually introducing tension and not just like a nice vacation day where we're
Daria Rudnik (20:38.159)
Yeah, nice. Well it yeah. Yeah, it it does take courage to to to do that, to conduct this training and to to actually participate, to like to be honest during this training program and to accept this tension and to go and be vulnerable. And I mean you're so right about the conflict management is so important right now because again with all the political tension and environmental and then global, economic people are so stressed and so polarized. I mean some I know some families don't don't speak
Dr. Irvine Nugent (20:46.669)
Yeah.
Dr. Irvine Nugent (20:53.293)
Yeah.
Dr. Irvine Nugent (21:05.387)
Yes. Yeah. Absolutely.
Daria Rudnik (21:08.135)
with each other because they have different political views and it's just crazy.
Dr. Irvine Nugent (21:11.479)
totally. People kind of sit down together at a table. You know, and I think that's important. There's another point I'd like to make, Darry, which hasn't come out, and that would be we also have this notion, which is totally incorrect, that every conflict can be resolved. That at the end of a process, we're we're buddies, we're friends, we we we're having a drink together, we have coffee in the mornings. Sometimes we have to agree to disagree, and sometimes the person in front of you is not going to be a friend.
And sometimes there's the tension's going to be there, and it's always going to be there, and that's okay. And how do we therefore live in that tension? See, that's the problem. The problem is we we don't, we're uncomfortable living in tension. We want to get away from it. But sometimes the tension's not going to go away. I mean, Northern Ireland, I mean, we have a priest process and everything's supposed to have been resolved, but there's still tension there. I still don't agree with other people from another side, et cetera. So how do I live in that?
Agree to disagree, work well together without feeling the need to resolve all the tensions.
Daria Rudnik (22:16.497)
I think that's that that feels like the most important part of our conversation today because I mean really like okay. I'm an Israel originally from Russia. We we we do have this experience in in conflict and like understanding what is that what what is the what is that you're trying to achieve? What is what is the goal, what is the value, what is the mission? And then is it like keeping this relationship with some people? I keep relationships. I don't care about anything.
Like I avoid conflict at all costs because relationship is important. In other situations, like truth is important. So let's talk about truth and have that tension because
Dr. Irvine Nugent (22:45.058)
Yes.
Dr. Irvine Nugent (22:54.007)
Yeah, yeah, you bring up a great point there. Like what is the point of this? You know, sometimes, you know, I was talking to a friend of mine whose uncle, they, they, they diametrically disagree with their uncle. And their uncle comes for dinner three or four times a year, and they said, I'm just waiting for it. I'm waiting for something to be said, you know. And I said, Do you think you're going to change your uncle? No. I said, That's that's a very wise thing to say. And do you think your uncle's gonna change you?
No. And said so, really what you need is skills. How do I sit with this person for meals and and it's pleasant and and and we can have a conversation without feeling the need to convert the other person? And and at times we we we we feel that we have to convert the other person. And really what it is, no, I just have to be able to sit in attention and and it's okay.
Daria Rudnik (23:46.014)
Yeah. Yeah. I have a very kind of practical question. Again, from my personal experience, I mean at work. I had to give feedback to my CEO about like the team and and some issues happening on the team. And I know he wouldn't like that. And I probably he wouldn't listen to that. And I prepared some data to support my point, but it's still it was it was a terrible conversation. I felt really bad and I don't think it went well.
So what would you recommend? Like how do you go and give feedback to your CEO?
Dr. Irvine Nugent (24:23.861)
Yeah. Well, let me mention something that I mentioned before, and that's power dynamics. So here we're in a a power dynamic. And so you have a person who's sitting on power. I think first of all, I'd want to know what do I know about how this person receives information? are they open? Are they not? What type of information? How how do they like to consume the information? And and then I think.
you have to make a judgment about what's the best way to bring up this topic. Now, there are there are certain people when you bring up an uncomfortable topic, they're not willing to listen to it. But it's said and it's there. And what normally happens sometimes, especially when you're talking truth, is down the road, it keeps happening, or or what you said comes true. And that will not go lost on the person. So the thing about it is, are you
Willing to have this temporary or short-term tension and uncomfortableness in the service of the bigger good, which is the truth came out and and eventually you will be justified. But you gotta live in that tension as well. And so I think you want to do it smartly. I don't think you rush in and say, Hey, let me tell you everything that's wrong on my team, you know. But I think you you want to learn about the CEO, how they receive information, and
know have a conversation and and even preface it and say look I want to have conversation with you and there some of the topics may be uncomfortable but I'm coming at this really of genuine concern for the organization or for the team and and I think if you know with that genuineness will be seen. It may not be received well or with full open arms but I think you've got to abide your time and sit in the attention
Daria Rudnik (26:17.603)
It feels like through all like the conversations we're having now, it's it's very important n for me personally, like notion that it doesn't have to be pleasant. It's not always ends well. It's it's the tension and be comfortable with this uncomfortable. because there is a a goal, there is something you want to achieve, there is something more important than your kind of feelings, your uncomfortable feelings at the moment.
Dr. Irvine Nugent (26:44.769)
Yeah, it it really is. And I think I think because it's so counter-cultural. I think we're we're taught to have, you know, culturally all conversations should be pleasant and and it's it's a facade. It's not true. now I'm I I I think I don't wanna give the illusion that every conversation should be a tense conversation, but I think I think learning to live in the tension actually increases your capacity.
The more you do it, the easier it becomes and the less tense it feels. you know, and I think I think that's that's part of it as well. It's not always super tense, but I think there is an ability, once we're able to sit in the tension, then I think it becomes easier, but it's so counter.
Daria Rudnik (27:31.901)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, Irvin, that was incredible. I mean, that was really great conversation about sitting with attention, understanding why you do that, building this organizational capacity to manage conflict. Is there anything I haven't asked you but you you think is important to share with our audience?
Dr. Irvine Nugent (27:53.59)
I I think I think I want to share. I was working with a team a few weeks ago and we did some capacity training. And I came back and a few days ago actually and I said, How's it going? He said, you know, I said, We we had it we had one of those conversations. And I said, one of those conversations. And he said, Yeah. He said, he said, Before we would have just blown up at each other. And and I said, Well, what happened now?
Daria Rudnik (28:13.555)
Yeah.
Dr. Irvine Nugent (28:19.873)
And he said, we were able to stay in the conversation without blowing up. And I said, Well, how was it? He said, it was uncomfortable. And he goes, it was a little bit messy. He goes, but we did it. And I love that because it was honest. It was like, this is not like a kumbaya, we're all going to solve the problem. It's messy, it's uncomfortable. But we're in the conversation, the important conversations. And I would just say to people out there, what are conversations are you missing? Because this is a
Critical time in business, in organizations, and and if you're missing conversations, then that's costing the organization.
Daria Rudnik (28:58.536)
from what I'm hearing, it's it's not so much about having difficult conversations or unpleasant conversations. It's about having important conversations. So have the courage to do have the important conversations, even if it may feel uncomfortable at
Dr. Irvine Nugent (29:08.705)
Yes.
Absolutely. Yes. Yes. Yeah. And so often we we avoid those important conversations.
Daria Rudnik (29:18.909)
Well, Irvin, thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and wisdom. Thanks for sharing those stories. How people can find you, learn more about what you do.
Dr. Irvine Nugent (29:26.347)
Yeah, sure. You can go to my website, which is conflicteq.com. I am very active on LinkedIn. So if anyone wants to link there with me, I put a lot of educational resources for people on LinkedIn and feel free to use that as a resource. There's also a beautiful free assessment on our website. If you're interested in intriguing, like what's happening in our organization or our team or with me, this will give you a little insight on how you're showing up.
Daria Rudnik (29:53.499)
Cool. Well we have all the links in the notes to this episode. So thank you very much for being here, Irvin. Thank you for listening to the full episode. If you like this episode, please give us five stars on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Subscribe to our YouTube channel and stay tuned for the next episodes. Bye.
Welcome to Build by People Leaders. I'm host, Daddy Rudnik, and this show is for HR and LD leaders, those building real impact from within and shaping AI radio organizations. Each episode, I sit down with people leaders to talk about how they build strong culture and shape the organizations around them. It's about HR being seen as a true business partner by leaders and by HR themselves. So let's get into that. And today I have a very special guest, Dr. Irvin.
Nugent is a leadership and conflict management expert, keynote speaker and co-founder of ConflictEQ. A former nonprofit CEO with a PhD in management, he helps leaders and organizations build the capacity to navigate pressure, difficult conversations, and workplace tensions without losing clarity or connection. Growing up in Northern Ireland during the Troubles shaped his belief that conflict is not the problem, how people respond under pressure is.
Welcome, Irvin. Thanks for joining us today.
Dr. Irvine Nugent (01:01.922)
Thank you, Darren. Thanks for the invitation. I'm looking forward to your conversation.
Daria Rudnik (01:05.616)
Yeah, me too. I mean it's such a hot topic 'cause the emotions are really heated. What's the one thing like every person needs to know about conflicts?
Dr. Irvine Nugent (01:18.914)
The one thing about conflict is I think we've grown up culturally to say that in leadership or in organizations when there's conflict, something's gone wrong. And I say that's bogus. It's actually a sign of something that is perfectly normal and to be expected.
Daria Rudnik (01:36.693)
I love it. I love it. It's so I mean it's so interesting. I'm so excited to talk about that. But before that, please tell us about your journey. Tell us about yourself.
Dr. Irvine Nugent (01:44.418)
Well, I I I I grew up with conflict all around me, so it's really not surprising that this is the work that I do. I grew up in, as you said, in a time of the troubles in Northern Ireland, which even itself is like we called it the troubles. It was a little more than that. but but you know, I grew up with this background and and you would think I grew up with a with a knowledge of how to do conflict well, and actually the opposite is totally true.
I grew up avoiding conflict. Conflict for me was something bad. Conflict was to be avoided. And I carried that throughout my life, including when I was CEO of an organization. And in that organization, I had a pivotal moment where a key employee came to me one day and said, I quit. And when I asked him why, he said, because we're not having the important conversations we need to have. And really was an indictment of my own leadership.
And that started me on this journey of why am I so avoidant of conflict and how can I change that? And zoom on to today, when really the core of my work is actually working in conflict. So I like to say I'm a recovering conflict coward. And and now I just find this area fascinating and the transformation it can create.
Daria Rudnik (03:06.755)
It really is like very interesting and like I ask I ask personal questions like from my own experience. I hate conflict. I I avoid conflict. I don't like conflict. However, like I was thinking about that and I was kind of thinking, I mean, maybe it's not conflict that I'm avoiding, maybe it's that I'm avoiding aggression and aggressive behavior. Is there a difference? Like what is conflict? Is it always about aggression or what is it?
Dr. Irvine Nugent (03:14.273)
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Irvine Nugent (03:33.486)
So that's a great question. So here's how I like to call conflict. Conflict emerges with the friction of differences of opinions and outlooks and perspectives. And when you think about that, well, wow, that's the most natural thing. You bring two human people together, there's going to be difference because it's part of humanity. It's beautiful. And that friction can cause conflict, can cause conflict. And what you're describing is where conflict becomes uneasy is.
When we look at that conflict and we see that, well, if I go down this route, what's the cost? And so often it is, well, it's going to cost me a friendship, or it's going to lead to a difficult conversation, or I would just rather have peace. I don't want to have the tension. And so we imagine all these consequences that are going to happen. And and therefore, one of the behaviors is the avoidance. We we just don't want to enter into the conflict because.
It's messy, and I don't want to be involved in the mess.
Daria Rudnik (04:37.373)
Mm-hmm. So do I hear you right? So conflict is when you experience this tension, there is a risk of losing something. And there's if if there is a no if there is no risk, it's not a conflict yet. But if there is a risk and you need to have the courage to go into that. So what is the fine line between like the constructive conflict when you have this tension, you talk to people, you go, you embrace this risk, but you're not breaking relationships.
Dr. Irvine Nugent (04:45.356)
Yes.
Dr. Irvine Nugent (04:50.337)
Yes, yes.
Dr. Irvine Nugent (04:56.076)
Yes.
Dr. Irvine Nugent (05:08.053)
Yeah, it's it's really interesting. You know, I always say, why is it in some conversations with certain people, we can have deep conversations and talk about our differences. And it's we don't feel that tension. And yet there's others that, whoa, the the thought of going there, it's like there's a heaviness, an emotional weight to it. And I think it is tied up with the perception that we will lose something. And you know, there is no
Perfect line here. There's not a clarity. I think at times what we want is this route through conflict that will not be messy. And I'm afraid that conversations and deep conversations and about differences, et cetera, sometimes we step over the line. Sometimes we'll say things that the other person might not like. Sometimes they'll say things that we don't like. That's all part of the communication. So it's it's not that, it's that it's that I think we feel we can't recover. That if we
Say something that offends the other person or steps the line, then we've kind of gone a bridge too far and we'll never recover. And that's what we have to try and step back from. That in any conversation, it's you're able to open sensitive topics, to say things that might the person might not like, but then to recognize that and then also to continue the conversation.
Daria Rudnik (06:32.645)
In organizations, like I'm seeing two opposites. Like one is we're all in peace, we're like a family, let's not raise uncomfortable issues, let's just be what it is. Like it is. And the other one is aggressive, conflict, culture because yes, we need to push through, we need to go. If you're not keeping up, you're out, things like that. What do you think? I mean I don't have a question, but
Dr. Irvine Nugent (07:01.493)
It's a great observation because I think it goes back to how we evolved as human beings. That in many ways, I think what makes conflict difficult is because we feel under threat at certain times. And when we feel threatened, there are some instinctive behaviors that we turn to. Some people want to freeze or to pull back, and that's the avoiders. You know, it's like, my God, I don't like this. I don't want to avoid it. Just oof, just make it go away.
Or else, as some of these will say, they'll deal with it themselves and and it'll go away, you know. And then the second is to move in to fight. So sometimes, you know, and I think those two tensions are showing up in the organizations that some people they move in with aggression that that that there's one winner, and the winner has to be me. It's my way. And and the other one is I just don't want to get involved. Now both of those can lead to very destructive behaviors.
The first one, of course, no one's listening, and it's my way. The second one is we're not going to even discuss the topics with tension. So both ways can create harmful cultures, but they're very instinctive. And that's what makes them tricky because they are so instinctive.
Daria Rudnik (08:19.165)
So when again in the organization, a leader, HR professional, whoever, I see that behavior in some people. This one is aggressive, this one is avoidance. How do you again, how do you address that? How do you how do you change that?
Dr. Irvine Nugent (08:27.499)
Mm.
Dr. Irvine Nugent (08:36.651)
Yeah. So I think I think there's a few things to say. The first thing is we were never taught how to manage conflict. We grew up, what I say is with a conflict story. Where we learned about conflict was in our families and in our society. And sometimes our family had a healthy conflict culture. Most of the time our families don't. So we learn there. And so no one we never did a course in high school or or or college, you know, how to manage conflicts. A very, very slight.
People probably did it, a number of people. So, first of all, is to understand people don't have any training or awareness of how to deal with it. So that's a start. So the thing is, I'm seeing I've seen approach an aggression or an avoidance. And so the first thing is rather than say, you're doing that wrong, it's like, what education do you need? What training do you need to help you manage things differently? Because let me tell you this: most people don't want to do what they're doing.
Because they know it's not successful. It's very uncomfortable. And then for HR directors, see, the problem with HR directors is they're always being dragged in as the referee. So if something goes wrong or whatever, the HR's pulled in. And what we say is: you know, poor HR directors, what would be great would be if people had their own capacity to deal with these conversations rather than the HR.
constantly being the referee. So I think a part of HR's role is to provide the resources and the training to make sure that leaders don't have to pull them in time and time again, but they're strengthened enough to have these difficult conversations successful.
Daria Rudnik (10:20.339)
I mean I that that is so true. I mean I I really recognize that. Like managers coming to you, Hey, I have a problem, go fix it. It's not just be a referee, just go fix it.
Dr. Irvine Nugent (10:26.955)
Yeah. Absolutely. We'll fix it. You fix it. I know. Except no one gives the the HR director a magic wand to fix it, you know? It's it's but but everyone feels the HR director w out of a puff of air will suddenly resolve this conflict.
Daria Rudnik (10:35.279)
Absolutely.
Daria Rudnik (10:42.855)
But if you are an employee or a peer and and you you see someone is behaving unhealthy, some someone's unhealthy behaviour, but th they're doing all right with their leadership team with the leaders. What's the best approach?
Dr. Irvine Nugent (11:01.287)
so let I mean let's be real, first of all. I mean, there are power dynamics at work, there's political dimensions at work, sometimes you feel that it's a risk too far to say something, and you gotta respect that. But I think if you feel comfortable enough with the person, I always like to say, you know, could you arrange kind of a conversation with the person?
And instead of really starting with, hey, I saw you do this and that's really ugly, you know, just say, you know, start with the general thing, hey, what are you struggling with at the moment? You know, what's tough for you? Because the reality is, I find that leaders are trying to do a good job, but you you mentioned at the start, people are just so overwhelmed. And at times people don't even recognize the behaviors they're in.
And I think a beautiful way to start a conversation is just to say that, hey, what what are you overwhelmed with at the moment? What's we really struggling with? Because then that kind of lets them talk about, hey, it's this project or this team is driving me mad. And I said, and and like like what what's happening to you? How are you managing that? And then there's a door open to say that. He said, Yeah, you know, I if if you're open to some feedback, I actually saw that. I I really see that you're struggling with that. you know.
What could we do about that? Is there anything, any support that I could give you? And I think then that begins the conversation rather than starting with, Hey, you shouldn't be that aggressive or hey, you're not having the conversation.
Daria Rudnik (12:38.407)
I like how you start with like you're not fixing the person, you're trying to help them with solving like their challenges and that is opening up the conversation.
Dr. Irvine Nugent (12:47.659)
Because if we really yeah, you know, because I think, Daria, if we really want to solve the problem, we have to help them develop the capacity to have better conversations and to deal with conflict. And and pointing out what they're doing wrong as a beginning is not going to help.
Daria Rudnik (13:05.491)
Well, you mentioned like building this capacity to it it takes time. It's it's a it's a learning curve. I don't know, breathe in, breathe out, like managing like understanding your emotions, managing your emotions. But we all know the current realities of our modern workplaces, which is go, go, go, go, deliver, deliver, deliver. Now, yesterday.
How like is it possible to to build this capacity?
Dr. Irvine Nugent (13:33.396)
I I think first of all, yes. I I I absolutely believe it is possible. Is it easy, simple, and quick? No. And there is no 10-minute solution to having a better conversation. But people who are committed to some self-awareness learning, I have been amazed at how quickly some of that self-awareness modifies some of the behaviors they're in. Very quickly.
And so it seems a long, long process. However, just some awareness around what are my emotions in the moment, what triggers me, just some like like writing down here are triggers that get me. Because once you become aware of patterns, and we are people of patterns, once we become aware of patterns, we introduce, and this is what we want to do, just a little bit of space for more choice. and that's really what we're trying to do. So
I I think you can see results quickly, but I'm not going to lie to you, I'm not going to say that it's the easiest thing in the world.
Daria Rudnik (14:42.653)
So is it about emotional regulation or is there something else there?
Dr. Irvine Nugent (14:47.287)
So I think emotional regulation is part of it. So I think part of it is before you can even regulate emotions, you have to understand what emotion am I in? Some people have very limited emotional vocabulary. You know, I'm angry. Well, what does that mean? I don't know, I'm just angry, you know? And so to help people understand, well, are you a 10 angry or a five angry or a four angry? There's nuances in all that. so that the second one is what triggered that anger? Like, why are you angry?
Most people are angry, and if you ask them why are you angry, it's because they can't really name the moment. They're in a mix of of anger about everything. Well, everything just angers me. So so understanding that is really helpful. And then some practical exercises for modulating the emotion that you're in is helpful. And then some other practical awareness about what are your to-go-to behaviors that
really are destructive when it comes to conversations? And what are some behaviors that you could build upon that are more constructive and open? And I think a knowledge of all those can really help a person change the dynamics of relationships and conversations.
Daria Rudnik (15:59.176)
Mm-hmm. Well, these are obviously great tools kind of to to remember and practice. And once you practice, your brain learns and you kind of remember that and it becomes at least you you're able to notice when when you go off the path. And it's more visible when like you see the aggression, you experience the aggression, you have some strong emotions, you can recognize that and maybe address that and say, I have a problem, I need to fix it. On the other hand, this quiet side of avoidance.
Dr. Irvine Nugent (16:09.623)
Mm.
Dr. Irvine Nugent (16:14.519)
Yeah.
Daria Rudnik (16:28.719)
It's less visible, it's less recognizable. Like I've seen teams when people say, Yes, I agree, yes, yeah, sure. All good, all fine, no problem. Engagement surveys, top, top, top, top, top, top, top marks for everything. First of all, how do you recognize that there is a problem? Or maybe they're just nice people.
Dr. Irvine Nugent (16:50.813)
I have I have a bias, and my bias is that that if there is a conflict avoidance, then meetings are the most boring thing possible because no one's ever discussing anything that's important and everyone's just agreeing with everyone else. And that is not an environment where you have ingenuity, creativity, because in order to advance and I mean, we are the world is is is in the midst of
Difficult problems. Companies are dealing with difficult problems. We have AI coming in. God knows what's going to happen there. So these are massive problems. And if we're having nice meetings where everyone's agreeing, something's wrong. So so for big problems, we need big ideas. There's going to be clashing of ideas. And I think people need but I do agree with you that there's a subtlety there that if things are calm, why rock the boat? And I think
I think when you dig a little below that calmness, I have gone into teams and I've interviewed all the team members, and on the surface, everything is calm. And yet you get beneath the surface, and all of a sudden, people have either just resigned themselves. Well, you know, I tried bringing up ideas before and it just went nowhere. What's the point? So there's this, it's almost like a resignation, and you know, and that's a bigger problem.
Because I think you've got cynicism, resignation, and on the surface things are fine, but below the surface we've got a lot of problems.
Daria Rudnik (18:30.575)
So on organizational level, what do you suggest? Like train everything on everyone on conflict management, emotional regulation? Like what how do we as organization build this capacity to have those constructive conflicts?
Dr. Irvine Nugent (18:50.573)
So I think at an organizational letter organizational level, I think there there's there's two problems. There's there are in every organization what I would call hot conflict. there are two people that are or teams that are that that that really the tension has risen above the surface and it's visible and it's impacting. And so I think there needs to be intervention there. I think there needs to some help helping the team and the individuals grow.
through that Pacific contra conflict, but then also grow the skills for future conversations. And then I I would suggest to organizations that the ability to deal with conflict is a key skill set that is needed in this century and going forward because of the because of the the the the tumult and the the change that's coming. And I think a organization that's visionary will introduce some
training to really build up that capacity within leadership. And we can do that through, you know, training and coaching. and and really not just your traditional, hey, we're going to have a day of conflict management training and now I'm, you know, because that's useless. The problem with a lot of EQ training and conflict management training is it's done in a classroom where everything is perfectly fine. We're in a day, we've got a way, and then we go into a situation it's like, what was that in the class? I don't remember. So
You've got to make the training realistic in that that you're training under pressure. You're training with real tension. And that's really what makes the difference of actually coaching in the difficulty and creating some training exercises that are actually introducing tension and not just like a nice vacation day where we're
Daria Rudnik (20:38.159)
Yeah, nice. Well it yeah. Yeah, it it does take courage to to to do that, to conduct this training and to to actually participate, to like to be honest during this training program and to accept this tension and to go and be vulnerable. And I mean you're so right about the conflict management is so important right now because again with all the political tension and environmental and then global, economic people are so stressed and so polarized. I mean some I know some families don't don't speak
Dr. Irvine Nugent (20:46.669)
Yeah.
Dr. Irvine Nugent (20:53.293)
Yeah.
Dr. Irvine Nugent (21:05.387)
Yes. Yeah. Absolutely.
Daria Rudnik (21:08.135)
with each other because they have different political views and it's just crazy.
Dr. Irvine Nugent (21:11.479)
totally. People kind of sit down together at a table. You know, and I think that's important. There's another point I'd like to make, Darry, which hasn't come out, and that would be we also have this notion, which is totally incorrect, that every conflict can be resolved. That at the end of a process, we're we're buddies, we're friends, we we we're having a drink together, we have coffee in the mornings. Sometimes we have to agree to disagree, and sometimes the person in front of you is not going to be a friend.
And sometimes there's the tension's going to be there, and it's always going to be there, and that's okay. And how do we therefore live in that tension? See, that's the problem. The problem is we we don't, we're uncomfortable living in tension. We want to get away from it. But sometimes the tension's not going to go away. I mean, Northern Ireland, I mean, we have a priest process and everything's supposed to have been resolved, but there's still tension there. I still don't agree with other people from another side, et cetera. So how do I live in that?
Agree to disagree, work well together without feeling the need to resolve all the tensions.
Daria Rudnik (22:16.497)
I think that's that that feels like the most important part of our conversation today because I mean really like okay. I'm an Israel originally from Russia. We we we do have this experience in in conflict and like understanding what is that what what is the what is that you're trying to achieve? What is what is the goal, what is the value, what is the mission? And then is it like keeping this relationship with some people? I keep relationships. I don't care about anything.
Like I avoid conflict at all costs because relationship is important. In other situations, like truth is important. So let's talk about truth and have that tension because
Dr. Irvine Nugent (22:45.058)
Yes.
Dr. Irvine Nugent (22:54.007)
Yeah, yeah, you bring up a great point there. Like what is the point of this? You know, sometimes, you know, I was talking to a friend of mine whose uncle, they, they, they diametrically disagree with their uncle. And their uncle comes for dinner three or four times a year, and they said, I'm just waiting for it. I'm waiting for something to be said, you know. And I said, Do you think you're going to change your uncle? No. I said, That's that's a very wise thing to say. And do you think your uncle's gonna change you?
No. And said so, really what you need is skills. How do I sit with this person for meals and and it's pleasant and and and we can have a conversation without feeling the need to convert the other person? And and at times we we we we feel that we have to convert the other person. And really what it is, no, I just have to be able to sit in attention and and it's okay.
Daria Rudnik (23:46.014)
Yeah. Yeah. I have a very kind of practical question. Again, from my personal experience, I mean at work. I had to give feedback to my CEO about like the team and and some issues happening on the team. And I know he wouldn't like that. And I probably he wouldn't listen to that. And I prepared some data to support my point, but it's still it was it was a terrible conversation. I felt really bad and I don't think it went well.
So what would you recommend? Like how do you go and give feedback to your CEO?
Dr. Irvine Nugent (24:23.861)
Yeah. Well, let me mention something that I mentioned before, and that's power dynamics. So here we're in a a power dynamic. And so you have a person who's sitting on power. I think first of all, I'd want to know what do I know about how this person receives information? are they open? Are they not? What type of information? How how do they like to consume the information? And and then I think.
you have to make a judgment about what's the best way to bring up this topic. Now, there are there are certain people when you bring up an uncomfortable topic, they're not willing to listen to it. But it's said and it's there. And what normally happens sometimes, especially when you're talking truth, is down the road, it keeps happening, or or what you said comes true. And that will not go lost on the person. So the thing about it is, are you
Willing to have this temporary or short-term tension and uncomfortableness in the service of the bigger good, which is the truth came out and and eventually you will be justified. But you gotta live in that tension as well. And so I think you want to do it smartly. I don't think you rush in and say, Hey, let me tell you everything that's wrong on my team, you know. But I think you you want to learn about the CEO, how they receive information, and
know have a conversation and and even preface it and say look I want to have conversation with you and there some of the topics may be uncomfortable but I'm coming at this really of genuine concern for the organization or for the team and and I think if you know with that genuineness will be seen. It may not be received well or with full open arms but I think you've got to abide your time and sit in the attention
Daria Rudnik (26:17.603)
It feels like through all like the conversations we're having now, it's it's very important n for me personally, like notion that it doesn't have to be pleasant. It's not always ends well. It's it's the tension and be comfortable with this uncomfortable. because there is a a goal, there is something you want to achieve, there is something more important than your kind of feelings, your uncomfortable feelings at the moment.
Dr. Irvine Nugent (26:44.769)
Yeah, it it really is. And I think I think because it's so counter-cultural. I think we're we're taught to have, you know, culturally all conversations should be pleasant and and it's it's a facade. It's not true. now I'm I I I think I don't wanna give the illusion that every conversation should be a tense conversation, but I think I think learning to live in the tension actually increases your capacity.
The more you do it, the easier it becomes and the less tense it feels. you know, and I think I think that's that's part of it as well. It's not always super tense, but I think there is an ability, once we're able to sit in the tension, then I think it becomes easier, but it's so counter.
Daria Rudnik (27:31.901)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, Irvin, that was incredible. I mean, that was really great conversation about sitting with attention, understanding why you do that, building this organizational capacity to manage conflict. Is there anything I haven't asked you but you you think is important to share with our audience?
Dr. Irvine Nugent (27:53.59)
I I think I think I want to share. I was working with a team a few weeks ago and we did some capacity training. And I came back and a few days ago actually and I said, How's it going? He said, you know, I said, We we had it we had one of those conversations. And I said, one of those conversations. And he said, Yeah. He said, he said, Before we would have just blown up at each other. And and I said, Well, what happened now?
Daria Rudnik (28:13.555)
Yeah.
Dr. Irvine Nugent (28:19.873)
And he said, we were able to stay in the conversation without blowing up. And I said, Well, how was it? He said, it was uncomfortable. And he goes, it was a little bit messy. He goes, but we did it. And I love that because it was honest. It was like, this is not like a kumbaya, we're all going to solve the problem. It's messy, it's uncomfortable. But we're in the conversation, the important conversations. And I would just say to people out there, what are conversations are you missing? Because this is a
Critical time in business, in organizations, and and if you're missing conversations, then that's costing the organization.
Daria Rudnik (28:58.536)
from what I'm hearing, it's it's not so much about having difficult conversations or unpleasant conversations. It's about having important conversations. So have the courage to do have the important conversations, even if it may feel uncomfortable at
Dr. Irvine Nugent (29:08.705)
Yes.
Absolutely. Yes. Yes. Yeah. And so often we we avoid those important conversations.
Daria Rudnik (29:18.909)
Well, Irvin, thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and wisdom. Thanks for sharing those stories. How people can find you, learn more about what you do.
Dr. Irvine Nugent (29:26.347)
Yeah, sure. You can go to my website, which is conflicteq.com. I am very active on LinkedIn. So if anyone wants to link there with me, I put a lot of educational resources for people on LinkedIn and feel free to use that as a resource. There's also a beautiful free assessment on our website. If you're interested in intriguing, like what's happening in our organization or our team or with me, this will give you a little insight on how you're showing up.
Daria Rudnik (29:53.499)
Cool. Well we have all the links in the notes to this episode. So thank you very much for being here, Irvin. Thank you for listening to the full episode. If you like this episode, please give us five stars on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Subscribe to our YouTube channel and stay tuned for the next episodes. Bye.