When to Lead vs. When to Manage (and Why Most Founders Get It Wrong) with Michael K. Cobb
Michael K. Cobb, Founder and CEO of ECI Development, has run three fully remote businesses across Central America for 30 years: a mortgage bank in Belize, an international real estate development company, and a teak timber operation in Panama that started with 100 acres planted in 1999 and now runs its own sawmill. His single biggest argument for scaling People teams: leadership and management are different jobs, and most growing organizations must deliberately build management infrastructure even when founders resist it.
For scaleups in the 100–1,500 employee tier, informal information sharing—the water cooler, the coffee pot—breaks down as headcount grows and leadership can no longer oversee everything directly. Michael Cobb built remote protocols to replace those channels long before COVID, starting with fax machines in the mid-1990s. He explains how People leaders rebuild connection and trust when co-location is no longer the glue.
For scaleups in the 100–1,500 employee tier, informal information sharing—the water cooler, the coffee pot—breaks down as headcount grows and leadership can no longer oversee everything directly. Michael Cobb built remote protocols to replace those channels long before COVID, starting with fax machines in the mid-1990s. He explains how People leaders rebuild connection and trust when co-location is no longer the glue.
Challenges Addressed
- Losing informal communication in remote scaleups: Michael Cobb explains that remote and high-growth companies lose the informal "water cooler" network that co-located offices rely on, and must replace it with deliberate structure.
- Founders resisting management structure: Michael Cobb assumed autonomy always drives satisfaction, but morale rose when he hired a Chief Operating Officer in the early-to-mid 2000s to add management structure.
- HR seen only as a problem-surfacer: Michael Cobb describes how People teams struggle to earn executive trust when they only bring problems to leadership rather than offering to help.
Actionable Takeaways
- Make remote connection an institution, not an accident: Require cameras on for every Zoom meeting and fund regular in-person gatherings so senior teams get the informal exchange that formal agendas miss.
- Calibrate management structure to each person: Some employees want autonomy and others want direction; hire managers who can read where each person sits on that spectrum and give them the right amount of structure.
- Open HR conversations with "How can I be more helpful to you?": Michael Cobb says this question earns immediate attention from leadership because most people arrive with problems, not offers of support.
Questions This Episode Answers
- How do you replace water cooler conversations in a remote company? Michael Cobb rebuilds informal networks through deliberate protocols: mandatory camera-on Zoom meetings, company-funded in-person gatherings, and both formal HR and informal "mother hen" support roles. He argues connection must be intentional because it no longer happens automatically.
- What is the difference between leadership and management? Michael Cobb defines leadership as inspiring people and forecasting future needs, and management as providing the structure that helps employees do their jobs. He says most growing organizations need dedicated management infrastructure, and that founders often confuse the two roles.
- How can HR build trust with business leadership? Michael Cobb recommends that HR leaders proactively engage executives and ask how they can help, rather than only surfacing problems. He notes that HR combines hard functions (payroll, recruiting, vacation tracking) with the softer, high-trust work of supporting employees through interpersonal and emotional challenges.
Links & Resources Mentioned:
- Connect with Michael K. Cobb on LinkedIn
- Michael K. Cobb's website: michaelkcobb.com
- Book: How to Buy Your Home Overseas and Get It Right the First Time (available on Amazon)
Daria Rudnik (00:04.97)
Welcome to Build by People Leaders.
Daria Rudnik (00:10.328)
That happens sometimes.
Michael K Cobb (00:11.917)
Good. It means you're human. I love it. I love it. You're not a robot. This is not an AI video of you. This is really you. So
Daria Rudnik (00:20.298)
No.
Daria Rudnik (00:27.222)
Welcome to Built by People Leaders Podcast. I'm your host, Daria Rudnik, as this show is for HR and L&D leaders, those building real impact from within and shaping AI ready organizations. Each episode, I sit down with people leaders to talk about how they build strong cultures and shape organizations around them. It's about HR being seen as a true business partner by leaders and by HR themselves. So let's dive in. And I'm happy to introduce you our special guest, Michael Cobb.
Visionary founder and CEO of ECI Development, a leading force in international real estate. Since 1996, Michael has created dynamic residential communities across Central America, including Belize, Nicaragua, Panama, Costa Rica, Honduras, and El Salvador. His developments range from private villas and tiny homes in an oceanfront golf resort to merit resort in Belize. I want to be there now.
Michael K Cobb (01:24.043)
Uh-huh. Daria, thank you. Good to be with you. I'm excited for our conversation today.
Daria Rudnik (01:25.471)
Welcome, Michael. Welcome to the show.
Daria Rudnik (01:33.046)
Yeah, me too. Well, it's amazing. You've built this business and it's it's not your only business from what I know. Tell us about yourself and your leadership journey.
Michael K Cobb (01:42.956)
Yeah, y you know, it's very interesting. I graduated from college in nineteen eighty-six, not knowing really what I was going to do. I graduated with a political science degree. I got into the computer industry in the Washington, DC area and was in that business for about twelve, almost thirteen years. And, you know, it and the owner of the company would never sell me a piece of the business. And so, but I've I've always had this entrepreneurial spirit and been driven.
And so in the mid-90s, in in 1994, I went to Belize for my very first trip, and we started a little mortgage company, my business partner and I. that mortgage company was in existence for about nine, almost 10 years, and we turned it into a bank in Belize. That's one of our businesses. it's really a mortgage bank. We still provide mortgages to people looking for properties throughout Central America and the Caribbean. So that was our first entrepreneurial venture. And then we saw that there was a need for
development, actual, you know, North American quality product in Belize to start, but then eventually throughout the region as well. And so again, fulfilling this entrepreneurial drive and and and always looking for a need that could be served, right? How can we serve a need in the marketplace that's either not being met or not being met very well? And so that was really always our driving driving force. And then we also started a teak timber business in Panama. I planted
one hundred acres of teak back in nineteen ninety nine. that teak is now mature. We're harvesting it. We built a sawmill over the last couple of years and we're beginning to create lumber and finished products that will be exported to the United States. So we really have three very different businesses, all based in Central America. But but from the ground up, right? We we we built these businesses. So very exciting.
Daria Rudnik (03:31.198)
I mean it's it's amazing. I always insp get inspired by people who can build something, something tangible, something that's running. And you know what I'm curious about? Like yeah, seeing an opportunity, like going out there, taking this opportunity is one thing. But the other thing is actually building it a sustainable business. What's your secret?
Michael K Cobb (03:53.71)
Well, you you'll you'll like my answer, Daria. You know, it's always about the people, the human resources, right? It's always about the people. And ideas are great. I think it was Woody Allen. I can't remember. Somebody said it's, you know, that that success is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent perspiration. And and so for me and my business partner, we're on the idea front, we're on the leadership front, right? And so we have these ideas.
And and they're not always good ideas, but that's why you surround yourself with people who will challenge your thinking, right? I think a lot of time business leaders surround themselves with yes men, yes women, whatever, who who just sort of echo, it's like an echo chamber. right? You get back, it's a great idea, it's a great idea. Well, maybe it is, maybe it isn't, right? And and so, you know, we've tended over the years, the last 30 plus years, to surround ourselves with critical thinkers who challenge our ideas. And
And and you know, and sometimes they're good ideas and sometimes they're not. And and and when you do that, what you ultimately find is that even a good idea needs refinement. Nothing comes out perfect the first time. right? So so through this dialogue process, through this analysis, this critical commentary and questioning, you can really take what is a good idea and make it a far better idea that you can then implement. But the implementation
is where the rubber meets the road, right? That's the ninety-nine percent. And and that's where you really need great teams of people. You need to recruit those people, you need to lead those people, you need to retain those people. And and and we thankfully have been able to do those three things very well in our organizations. And and so we've got people that have been with us for, you know, in some cases 30 years, the entire length of our business, many people, 20 and and 15 and and
And and and more than 10, many p most people more than 10 years, right? So so when you have great people, you can get a lot of wonderful things done.
Daria Rudnik (05:53.881)
Well, you have three different businesses. I know they kind of support each other. I I'm curious, like those teams are they are they separate teams or like you see all of those three businesses as as one?
Michael K Cobb (05:58.392)
They do. Yeah.
Michael K Cobb (06:08.139)
Yeah. No, th th great question. The the the the businesses really are three very independent businesses. The banking business, especially, because it is a highly regulated business. The Central Bank of Belize regulates banking in Belize. And so we we are beholden to the central bank and the rules and regulations, although now the United States and Europe have really imposed a lot of regulations, whether it's the common CRS common reporting standard from Europe or FATCA coming out of the US.
So a lot of the regulations that that really were developed in the United States and Europe have now been implemented in Belize and other countries as well. so the bank is its own business. We hired banking professionals, you know, people who understood the regulatory environment, who understand the business very, very well. The real estate and the teak definitely have some synergies, and we get some cross pollination there from our marketing and sales team. but that's really where the the the Venn diagram would would
on those two businesses would overlap on sales and marketing. each business has its own accounting, each business has its own administrative, and then obviously the leadership in those businesses. Well, at at sort of this the the the executive level, each of those businesses has a leadership team that's dedicated to that business. and then overreaching sort of a I would call a board level, myself, my business partner and our board of directors can then give you big picture direction across
th those businesses.
Daria Rudnik (07:40.984)
From from what I understand, like your businesses are remote, like you have the your teams are remote, at least for some of them or like for for all of them. How how does it work for you?
Michael K Cobb (07:45.239)
Yes.
Michael K Cobb (07:52.448)
Yeah, you know, I it it's interesting because our very first business, the mortgage company, going all the way back to the mid-90s, you know, we we were a remote company from the very beginning. And then we started our development company in 1996. You know, we had people in the United States, we had people in Belize, and and and so we were a remote company from day one. Hey, hi kitty. That's nice. I love that.
so you know, and then when we bought our property in Nicaragua in 2000 and Costa Rica in 2004, like we've been a remote company from day one. And so going all the way back to fax machines, when we first started, literally, like there was no well, it probably wasn't internet or was DARPA net or something, but anyway, but like it was fax machines, phone and fax, right? And so we developed protocols and systems and and and a business culture, a management culture and a business culture
around being a remote company long before sort of you know the whole the COVID thing kind of blew up and and really forced a remoteness to many jobs. But but we've been remote for for thirty years. Yeah.
Daria Rudnik (09:04.365)
You're saying about like the protocols and systems? Because, like, the problem many companies faced when they went all remote, and the reason why they want to get back to the office is because they kind of said, Okay, we had something working in the office. Let's see, you would do the same thing through Zoom. Well, it's not working like that, you need to have another system of remote work of how you communicate, how you collaborate, how you like set goals. I mean, it's not just
Coming to a person saying, Hey, okay, what are you doing working on? Okay, change it. Let's do something else. You cannot do that in remote settings. Absolutely.
Michael K Cobb (09:38.178)
No. You know, that look, and and and you you're your your business and and and experiences in the human resources, HR, right? And there's that concept of the water cooler or the coffee pot or or the cigarette, you know, mm butt butth holder outside or whatever, right? You know, and so in each of those scenarios, what you have is an informal information sharing event, right? People at the coffee pot or the outside smoking and or whatever. And and so it's an informal
information sharing event. And so when you go remote, this informal network largely disappears. And so yes, you have to come back to protocol and systems. One of the things that we did very very early and and we continue to do it wasn't we did it and forgotten we we did it and we we modified it, tweaked it, made it better is to create these hmm
I'm gonna call them institutions, right? So let me let me use the word institutions. We've created these institutions whereby people are forced, I mean not really, but but forced to participate in Zoom meetings on camera. Absolutely. Nobody's off camera ever on our Zoom meetings. And and so, you know, you want this engagement, right? So so th there are these protocols that say, hey, look, when we're in a Zoom meeting, we're fully present. All of us are fully present. And then we try to do, and we haven't done a great job with this.
but we've done some of it and and they're they're sort of the fun activities where you know you come together for a a cocktail, sip, you know, sip and talk. And and and I think a lot actually what I think is happening is is that organically a lot of that's happening maybe at the at the management level, not at the senior management level, certainly not at my level. but the other thing that we've done is we we you know we've we've we've spent a lot of money on airline tickets, right? I fly to these destinations, we fly people to meet.
and we we have as many belly-to-belly encounters as we possibly can. I was just in in Serbia and we flew a couple people to Serbia to all meet there so we could be together. It was just it was just convenient for my European team to come to Serbia because I had meetings in Serbia, right? And so we we do those kinds of things as often as we can to get our senior leadership together belly to belly for those, you know, really informal information sharing
Michael K Cobb (11:59.374)
times because you know again when you're when you're in a meeting, you have a start, you have a stop, you have an agenda, bing, bing, bang, bing, bang. Right. And and and that's really important. But the informal piece is also important and and and that's the harder part to get in a remote culture.
Daria Rudnik (12:14.85)
Yeah, and I love what you're saying. Like it's it's gotta be intentional. So you need to spend time and make effort to actually make that happen. It it's not happening like automatically. And it's good because even I mean, even in the office there are people who don't kind of feel isolated a bit for whatever reasons. But if you make intention to connect people, bring them all together, depending on the company's culture, that's that's how you make it work.
Michael K Cobb (12:39.945)
Absolutely.
Daria Rudnik (12:41.634)
I remember you said something that you don't do management, you do leadership.
Michael K Cobb (12:45.709)
That's true. I I I I I tell people all the time I am a terrible manager. On my best day, I am a good manager. On my best day, I'm a good manager. on most days, I'm a bad manager. And most of the time, you know, I'm a terrible manager, right? But but but I actually believe that I am a great leader most days. and on my best days, I'm a phenomenal leader, right? And so
The recognition that leadership and management are two very, very different things took me a long time to really get my arms around it. Probably took me 20 years, maybe 25 years of professional, you know, being in being in the computer business for a big chunk of that and then the the banking and and the development stuff, right? But for it took me 25 years from graduation of college to really understand the the the the I don't know the nuances, right? The deep differences between management and leadership and where my
expertise and my gifting is as opposed to where it's not. And and and I think that that's a that that understanding has let me become a far better leader, but it has also let our businesses, because we go out and we hire management. When I'm looking for somebody to come in and do something, I mean we want leaders, we want decision makers, right? But but I think that the the skill set that I try to always backfill behind me is management, right? Because
Like yeah, 'cause I don't possess it I very well. and so we can backfill the organization with managers, then you you really create that that that that that I don't the the the form and the framework that allows a business to be successful.
Daria Rudnik (14:28.026)
So what's the difference?
Michael K Cobb (14:30.061)
what's the difference? you know, leadership is inspiration. Sorry, sorry, I didn't mean to go off. Okay. Yeah. Leadership is inspiration. It's it's it's either pushing or pulling, guiding. That's leadership. It's it's working with people to bring out their best, right? That's leadership. Bringing out the best in others in whatever that capacity is. Management is helping somebody to do their job.
Daria Rudnik (14:34.19)
No no no no, I mean it's good, it is good. I mean the
Michael K Cobb (14:59.497)
And those two things are very, very different to me. and and and and and and I I find that I I know how I like to be managed. I I I I say this all the I just say this all the time. My best boss ever was a woman named Julia. And when I and and this was a consulting gig I took, but it was a little bit like a job. I had to show up, you know, once a week and run some meetings for them and stuff like that. It was a great gig. I walked into her office the first day. I'd known her for a while ahead of time. She said, Mike, kind of clear on what your job is? I'm like, Yeah, I kind of.
I know what I'm supposed to do. And this is like 15 minutes, right? My first day at doing this, right? And she she says, All right, if you have any questions, my door's always open. I'm like, Great, Julia, thanks. See ya. Walked out and like, I'm like, best job ever. I mean, we talked about stuff, but like, here's what you know what needs to be done. Yep, I know exactly what needs to be done. Great, go do it. Like to me, that was the perfect job because nobody was managing me.
Right. I had resources I could if I needed them, but but nobody managed me. But that's a unique characteristic. I think most people want some guidance and structure in their lives, in their work lives for sure. And and and what blew me away is we at one point, this going back into maybe early 2000s, 2004, 5, 6, you know, we hired a chief operating officer to come run our business, our development business. And I knew that when we hired a chief operating officer,
That performance would increase and and and that that we'd be a more efficient organization, we'd accomplish more for the same resources, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I I understood all that. What shocked me, probably this is act probably this is actually when I got this awareness. What shocked me was that not only did efficiency and production go up, morale went up. And I just like, I was like, How is that possible? Because if somebody tried to put a box around me.
My morale would take a nosedive. Like, I don't want to be in a box. Don't ever put me in a box, right? But most people wanted structure around their work life. And and it's the exact opposite of what I want. And I was managing people, this is why I'm not a great manager. I was managing people how I want to be managed, which is tell me what you need done and stay out of my way. Just just that's it. That's how I want to be managed, right? Most people want a lot more structure and a lot more direction.
Michael K Cobb (17:23.669)
And so when when Martin came on board and things improved in many ways, but morale improved, I I I did. I I really had like this double triple take of wow, like didn't see that coming. But it was a powerful awakening in my business leadership comprehension, right? Now I understood like that that's really important for people. And so we need to make sure that as an organization, we have management to give people who want structure.
And it's some people want a lot, some people want less, some people want, you know, whatever. I'm a it's a spectrum, right? But to be able to look at each of our people and give them the right amount of structure to let them be the best they can be in the business. And and and that was that was sh shocking, quite honestly. It was shocking to me. Yeah.
Daria Rudnik (18:12.038)
Well, thanks, Mike. That that's that's an incredible story. I mean, that's really great. And and and to those who are listening, it's it's it's again, it's about people need clarity, but they need it on a different level. Some people create clarity for themselves, some people need some more clarity from their managers, some people need clarity, I don't know, from the peers and colleagues, and kind of understanding where people are and creating the opportunity. Okay, here is the structure that we kind of operate and
Do you need more support? If you do need more support, here is a little bit more structure. If you don't need more support, go do that. Just do your job. Yeah, that's great.
Michael K Cobb (18:47.361)
Right, right. And and a great manager can can see that and deliver that, right? As a leader, I I really can't see it. And I and I certainly have not done a very good job of delivering it, which is why we now have managers in our organizations who do exactly that. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, and and and the other job of a leader, sorry, real quick, the other job of a leader is to I I call it see over the hill, see around the bend, right?
Daria Rudnik (18:54.395)
Mm-hmm.
Michael K Cobb (19:14.987)
And and there's there there's some intuitiveness in that, right? You're you're making some guesses. And and and I think that that that piece of leadership is critically important because you this is and you don't always get it right, but if you get it right more times than you get it wrong, and if you get it wrong, you make a quick pivot. You know, humility, I think humility is a huge part of leadership, right? Because if if you if you get it wrong, you've got to admit that fast. Make the change, make the adjustment, right? But
But if you can get it right more often than you get it wrong, like you know, kind of taking a guess, like what's coming next, like forecasting, right? I I love Yogi Berra. His quote is, you know, the prediction is really hard, especially when it's about the future. Right? I mean it's such a great line, right? That guy had so many great one-liners, right? But but but but right, prediction is really hard, especially about the future.
But leaders have to do that, right? Leaders have to make educated guesses. And they are guesses, right? We get as much information as we can get as quickly as we can. But sometimes there's a lot of holes in the data, right? And we still have to make that decision. And and so, you know, leadership is about risk taking. It's about being confident enough. This is the weird thing, right? You have to be confident enough to make decisions with limited data, little data, sometimes a lot of data, but but many times not very much data.
So there's a high level of confidence, but you also in that same person have to have enough humility that when you get it wrong, you can quickly admit it and pivot. And so that that's a that's those two those two characteristics I think are fundamentally important for leaders.
Daria Rudnik (20:57.455)
Yeah, I love that confidence and humility, being confident, making decision and then kind of humble enough to to change to say I was wrong. Yeah, let's do something else. You know what, Mike, I'm like really curious about you as a business owner, or maybe like your businesses. How do you build partnership with HR? How HR is building partnership with with you?
Michael K Cobb (21:06.733)
Right. Yep.
Michael K Cobb (21:21.057)
Yeah. You know, a a HR is incredibly important. it it it does a lot of things, right? There's there's what I would call the functionality of human resources, right? Somebody has to place ads to recruit people, somebody has to look through resumes, somebody has to make interviews, right? Then pass off the candidates to the department, head, whoever's supposed to you know, get that person, so to speak, right? And so you you got the functionality. You've got keeping track of payroll, keeping track of vacation time.
So you got all of those hard elements. I'm gonna call them the hard elements of HR, right? But then you got the soft element of HR. And and and and and both are critically important. but but the soft element, I I call it the you know, the the the the mother hen, right? It's it's it's and and and not all HR people really have this. right? Sometimes it's somebody else in the organization that provides this, you know, mother hen kind of
personality right? It it it's the it's the in the Myers Briggs, it would be an SF, right? A sensing-feeling person. right? Who can listen and and really understand where somebody's coming from and how they're feeling about things. Because work's stressful. Like you you're it's interpersonal. I mean you're I mean you're working with other people all the time. And if it was perfect, it's not people are people. right? People get along sometimes. They don't get along sometimes, right? And there's stresses in work. So there's there's this emotional
element to work the work life, which again, I mean it's you know, it's eight, 10, sometimes, you know, whatever, 14 hours, right? Of a day. right? So it's the biggest part of your waking day for most people. right? And so like the there's an emotional piece to this. And so a a great organization has at least one, it depends on the size of the organization, or several. They can be formal, that could be the person in the HR office.
Or they can be informal, they can be people in the organization who just naturally can talk to people and understand what's going on and help people kind of work through challenges, interpersonal challenges, emotional challenges. And and so you to me, the HR human resource, the human piece, right, is probably in the end far more important than the hard piece, which is keeping track of people's vacations and stuff like that. I mean, it not not that anybody not that anybody can do that, right?
Michael K Cobb (23:43.032)
But it it's that's much more process oriented. If you create the process for doing those kinds of things, it can work with oversight. right? Being a person who can really deal with people's challenges, whether they're social, emotional, spiritual, right? That that that's a gifting. And and so I think organizations that have a person who has that gifting that people can come to and trust, it's a high trust, it's a really high trust position too, because
They have to be sort of the one way black hole, right? Stuff comes in, it doesn't go back out. And and if you have that person or people in your organization, then you're gonna have a much healthier organization because people can come, dump, get advice. Well, look, Bob's going through some tough times right now. You know, his wife's leaving him. G cut him a break. You know, just cut him a break, right? And and and that would be public information, right? I mean, it wouldn't be you're not spilling out of the black hole, but but like there are things going on in Bob's life. Please just cut him a break and you guys, you know.
You guys used to get along and I know you have to work together, whatever. So that kind of healing that can be brought by this gifted this gifting type of person is is powerfully important in an organization.
Daria Rudnik (24:55.118)
Yeah. It's kind of supporting the culture that you want to build, the kind of being make sure people feel feel good. And you mentioned trust. And I'm curious. I mean, there are lots of ways HR can build trust with employees, but it's also very important that HR builds trust with business owners, leadership team. How what would you say? Like what would you would you recommend to HR leaders building trust? How can they build trust with business owners and and leadership teams?
Michael K Cobb (24:59.073)
Yes, absolutely.
Michael K Cobb (25:24.311)
Hmm. Well, that's a great question. Yeah. No, it's a great that's a great question. you know, I I think that I think ultimately it's always about engagement. right? It it's about engaging with the leadership team and and and and and I hate to say forcing their way into meetings, right? But but certainly on a on a one on one basis. You know, as a leader, I I I know who my I know who my
Daria Rudnik (25:25.798)
With you.
Michael K Cobb (25:51.554)
caring, sensitive people are in the organization. And in fact, in my organization, I have somebody who kind of handles the hard stuff right? In in in Portugal. And then I've got a couple people who kind of are the people that people naturally go to when they've got a problem and they're upset. They they they don't go to the HR department. They go to a couple of these people. And and so the the the the the the challenge for a leader, right, is to identify those people and then make sure that you are engaging with
All of them, right? I mean, the the the hard side, but the soft side far more important. And so I think that that HR, if you're if you're in that position as an HR professional, you have to take the initiative to reach out to leadership and and and and say, hey, this is this is what we're doing, this is why we're doing it, right? How how can I be helpful to you? And and when anyone in the organization, whether it's HR or sales or marketing or accounting, finance, I don't care, when somebody comes to me and says, Mike,
How can I be more helpful to you? Boom, my ear goes up because most of the time people are bringing me problems. Mike, we need that. No, no, no. Very few people show up and say, How can I be more helpful? Right. And when they do, it's a okay, we can have that conversation. Right. And so I think that's that's the great entree. That's a great opening line for HR. How can I help you, Mike, to you know, be able to do more? How can I help the company? What are you seeing where I can, you know, I can make a difference?
Daria Rudnik (26:55.985)
Yeah.
Michael K Cobb (27:19.467)
And and those are the kinds of things that that I think leadership responds to very well because you know, we're we're we're able to then position that element into our thinking and our and our forward projection. right? I I I don't know. I I think that would be my answer.
Daria Rudnik (27:37.36)
Yeah, I love the question. I mean it yeah, it's a great question. How can it be helpful to you? I mean, you you understand the person, you you build relationship and you can do actually something meaningful that would help them organization and and and you. Yeah.
Michael K Cobb (27:47.906)
Yeah.
Michael K Cobb (27:51.819)
Right, right.
Daria Rudnik (27:54.406)
Mike, I know have a book. Tell us a little bit about your book.
Michael K Cobb (27:56.59)
I do have a book. It's called How to Buy Your Home Overseas and Get It Right the First Time. And the the thing is that it it's an interesting book, and I I'm not sure I love the title because I think the title is maybe too constrictive. it was recommended because it was going on Amazon as a you know how-to book. right? So that that was a thing. But but the book is really about how do you transact, whether it's buying a home, making an investment, or just simply
living overseas. I got I got a couple of chapters on culture shock and things like that right? And what what it means to move there. And so so the the the thing about the book is, which I I believe is powerfully important for leaders, right? Is that that it yeah we have to think outside the box. There's a great quote from one of my college alumni and I tore it out of the Alumni magazine, I think maybe the first year I graduated, so 1987 or something. And and it said,
There is no competition outside the masses. Strive to be outside the competition. And so I think the the idea of being outside the box is really important, finding a need and serving a need. And and when you're out in this uncomfortable zone, let me just call it that. right? There are techniques, there are ways that we can think about things. And my book largely is about humility, Daria. That that that's it it it just starts off with.
When we don't know what we don't know. We don't. We we don't know what we don't know. And then the other axiom in the book is we also have to forget what we think we know, right? We have to give up our assumptions. Because when we go outside our home country or our home turf and we're gonna transact in another country, another culture, another language, right, another legal system, whatever it is, all all of the above. right? In some cases, right, things are different. And so whatever we think will happen.
Daria Rudnik (29:42.599)
No.
Michael K Cobb (29:53.408)
Maybe it'll happen, maybe it won't. But we also don't know the possibilities of things that might come at us. And so when we're working in an environment like that, the the the the amygdala in your brain, right, is this filtering mechanism, right? Your your body hears the air conditioning in the background, it hears the car go by, it it feels the weight of your feet on the floor, it feels the clothing touching you, right? But but until I mentioned all those things, I I didn't
Think about them, right? Because the amygdala filters out like 95% of every sensory thing so that we can stay focused on what we want. And when we go outside our home turf, like we have to let our amygdala pay more attention to lots more things because we need that sensory input. We need to be on our toes, so to speak, so that we see something that doesn't make sense. Well, why didn't it make sense? What was that? You know, and and that is found fundamentally rooted in humbleness.
Like, whoa, I don't quite understand that. What's going on? And and and and and the best thing that we can do as leaders when we're leading is this, you know, confidence and humility, right? And when we go overseas or we go outside our home country, it's both of those things are far more important, but humility taking the lead. So the book is really about how we can i whether we're going outside our home country or not. I I think the lessons of the book on how we can
Become more humble, but yet retain our confidence when we do make decisions. that that's fundamentally what the book's about, with examples of going overseas. Because I think those are tremendous stressors. Right. No, no, when you go overseas, they're stressors. And when we're stressed, right? I mean, they talk about, look, they're always talking about the financial system and the banking system. We're going to stress test it. right? Well, you know, when you go overseas or go outside your home country, you are stress testing your assumptions. You're stress testing your
Daria Rudnik (31:30.724)
Well
Michael K Cobb (31:49.294)
cultural awareness, right? and and and I think all of these things are wonderful. They're they're fun. They're you know adventurous people love them. but they are stressful. so how do we deal with that? Yeah.
Daria Rudnik (32:02.149)
Yeah. I wish I had your book four years ago when I was moving from Russia to Israel. Lots of stress dance, lots.
Michael K Cobb (32:07.627)
Okay. Yeah. Right. You know, Daria, that's right. You you absolutely know. Yeah. And and and and and what we find is that, you know, if we if we just have a few little quickie techniques and little quickie ideas and concepts that we can lock into our brain and begin to filter through that, we will find the process far less painful and far more enjoyable. And and ultimately that's it. right? I mean, reducing pain is great.
But increasing pleasure, right? And making it a much more pleasurable experience, ultimately is I I think better than the reducing the pain. right? Have fun. Enjoy it. Find the adventure. Yeah.
Daria Rudnik (32:49.905)
Yeah, let's do that. Well, thank you so much, Mike. It was an amazing conversation. I mean, we've learned so much about building like building multiple businesses, the difference between leadership and management, how important it's for managers to build structure that is relevant for people out there to understand the kind of the level of structure people need, the importance of understanding how people feel and building trust with with the leaders by asking one simple question. What can I do for you? How can I make your life easier?
How people can find you? How people can reach out to you and and find your book?
Michael K Cobb (33:25.089)
Yeah, easy. my website is michaelkcobb.com and you can find it there. And if the I'm I'll send you the link to the book. I think you're gonna put it in the show notes, available on Amazon. And we'd love to, you know, we'd love to and by the way, for anybody thinking about doing business outside their home country, you know, one of the things we do is is we actually help folks with that as well as consultants.
And so again, we can help people in many different ways. ultimately, you know, I just really, really encourage people to strive to be outside the masses, look outside the boxes, find a need that needs to be served, engage it and and enjoy a wonderfully adventurous life. Yeah.
Daria Rudnik (34:11.461)
Amazing. Well, thank you so much, Mike. All the links are in the notes to this episode. Please reach out to Michael and he's lots of knowledge to share. Get his book. And if you like this episode, please give us five stars on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Subscribe to our YouTube channel and stay tuned for the next episodes. Bye.
Welcome to Build by People Leaders.
Daria Rudnik (00:10.328)
That happens sometimes.
Michael K Cobb (00:11.917)
Good. It means you're human. I love it. I love it. You're not a robot. This is not an AI video of you. This is really you. So
Daria Rudnik (00:20.298)
No.
Daria Rudnik (00:27.222)
Welcome to Built by People Leaders Podcast. I'm your host, Daria Rudnik, as this show is for HR and L&D leaders, those building real impact from within and shaping AI ready organizations. Each episode, I sit down with people leaders to talk about how they build strong cultures and shape organizations around them. It's about HR being seen as a true business partner by leaders and by HR themselves. So let's dive in. And I'm happy to introduce you our special guest, Michael Cobb.
Visionary founder and CEO of ECI Development, a leading force in international real estate. Since 1996, Michael has created dynamic residential communities across Central America, including Belize, Nicaragua, Panama, Costa Rica, Honduras, and El Salvador. His developments range from private villas and tiny homes in an oceanfront golf resort to merit resort in Belize. I want to be there now.
Michael K Cobb (01:24.043)
Uh-huh. Daria, thank you. Good to be with you. I'm excited for our conversation today.
Daria Rudnik (01:25.471)
Welcome, Michael. Welcome to the show.
Daria Rudnik (01:33.046)
Yeah, me too. Well, it's amazing. You've built this business and it's it's not your only business from what I know. Tell us about yourself and your leadership journey.
Michael K Cobb (01:42.956)
Yeah, y you know, it's very interesting. I graduated from college in nineteen eighty-six, not knowing really what I was going to do. I graduated with a political science degree. I got into the computer industry in the Washington, DC area and was in that business for about twelve, almost thirteen years. And, you know, it and the owner of the company would never sell me a piece of the business. And so, but I've I've always had this entrepreneurial spirit and been driven.
And so in the mid-90s, in in 1994, I went to Belize for my very first trip, and we started a little mortgage company, my business partner and I. that mortgage company was in existence for about nine, almost 10 years, and we turned it into a bank in Belize. That's one of our businesses. it's really a mortgage bank. We still provide mortgages to people looking for properties throughout Central America and the Caribbean. So that was our first entrepreneurial venture. And then we saw that there was a need for
development, actual, you know, North American quality product in Belize to start, but then eventually throughout the region as well. And so again, fulfilling this entrepreneurial drive and and and always looking for a need that could be served, right? How can we serve a need in the marketplace that's either not being met or not being met very well? And so that was really always our driving driving force. And then we also started a teak timber business in Panama. I planted
one hundred acres of teak back in nineteen ninety nine. that teak is now mature. We're harvesting it. We built a sawmill over the last couple of years and we're beginning to create lumber and finished products that will be exported to the United States. So we really have three very different businesses, all based in Central America. But but from the ground up, right? We we we built these businesses. So very exciting.
Daria Rudnik (03:31.198)
I mean it's it's amazing. I always insp get inspired by people who can build something, something tangible, something that's running. And you know what I'm curious about? Like yeah, seeing an opportunity, like going out there, taking this opportunity is one thing. But the other thing is actually building it a sustainable business. What's your secret?
Michael K Cobb (03:53.71)
Well, you you'll you'll like my answer, Daria. You know, it's always about the people, the human resources, right? It's always about the people. And ideas are great. I think it was Woody Allen. I can't remember. Somebody said it's, you know, that that success is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent perspiration. And and so for me and my business partner, we're on the idea front, we're on the leadership front, right? And so we have these ideas.
And and they're not always good ideas, but that's why you surround yourself with people who will challenge your thinking, right? I think a lot of time business leaders surround themselves with yes men, yes women, whatever, who who just sort of echo, it's like an echo chamber. right? You get back, it's a great idea, it's a great idea. Well, maybe it is, maybe it isn't, right? And and so, you know, we've tended over the years, the last 30 plus years, to surround ourselves with critical thinkers who challenge our ideas. And
And and you know, and sometimes they're good ideas and sometimes they're not. And and and when you do that, what you ultimately find is that even a good idea needs refinement. Nothing comes out perfect the first time. right? So so through this dialogue process, through this analysis, this critical commentary and questioning, you can really take what is a good idea and make it a far better idea that you can then implement. But the implementation
is where the rubber meets the road, right? That's the ninety-nine percent. And and that's where you really need great teams of people. You need to recruit those people, you need to lead those people, you need to retain those people. And and and we thankfully have been able to do those three things very well in our organizations. And and so we've got people that have been with us for, you know, in some cases 30 years, the entire length of our business, many people, 20 and and 15 and and
And and and more than 10, many p most people more than 10 years, right? So so when you have great people, you can get a lot of wonderful things done.
Daria Rudnik (05:53.881)
Well, you have three different businesses. I know they kind of support each other. I I'm curious, like those teams are they are they separate teams or like you see all of those three businesses as as one?
Michael K Cobb (05:58.392)
They do. Yeah.
Michael K Cobb (06:08.139)
Yeah. No, th th great question. The the the the businesses really are three very independent businesses. The banking business, especially, because it is a highly regulated business. The Central Bank of Belize regulates banking in Belize. And so we we are beholden to the central bank and the rules and regulations, although now the United States and Europe have really imposed a lot of regulations, whether it's the common CRS common reporting standard from Europe or FATCA coming out of the US.
So a lot of the regulations that that really were developed in the United States and Europe have now been implemented in Belize and other countries as well. so the bank is its own business. We hired banking professionals, you know, people who understood the regulatory environment, who understand the business very, very well. The real estate and the teak definitely have some synergies, and we get some cross pollination there from our marketing and sales team. but that's really where the the the Venn diagram would would
on those two businesses would overlap on sales and marketing. each business has its own accounting, each business has its own administrative, and then obviously the leadership in those businesses. Well, at at sort of this the the the executive level, each of those businesses has a leadership team that's dedicated to that business. and then overreaching sort of a I would call a board level, myself, my business partner and our board of directors can then give you big picture direction across
th those businesses.
Daria Rudnik (07:40.984)
From from what I understand, like your businesses are remote, like you have the your teams are remote, at least for some of them or like for for all of them. How how does it work for you?
Michael K Cobb (07:45.239)
Yes.
Michael K Cobb (07:52.448)
Yeah, you know, I it it's interesting because our very first business, the mortgage company, going all the way back to the mid-90s, you know, we we were a remote company from the very beginning. And then we started our development company in 1996. You know, we had people in the United States, we had people in Belize, and and and so we were a remote company from day one. Hey, hi kitty. That's nice. I love that.
so you know, and then when we bought our property in Nicaragua in 2000 and Costa Rica in 2004, like we've been a remote company from day one. And so going all the way back to fax machines, when we first started, literally, like there was no well, it probably wasn't internet or was DARPA net or something, but anyway, but like it was fax machines, phone and fax, right? And so we developed protocols and systems and and and a business culture, a management culture and a business culture
around being a remote company long before sort of you know the whole the COVID thing kind of blew up and and really forced a remoteness to many jobs. But but we've been remote for for thirty years. Yeah.
Daria Rudnik (09:04.365)
You're saying about like the protocols and systems? Because, like, the problem many companies faced when they went all remote, and the reason why they want to get back to the office is because they kind of said, Okay, we had something working in the office. Let's see, you would do the same thing through Zoom. Well, it's not working like that, you need to have another system of remote work of how you communicate, how you collaborate, how you like set goals. I mean, it's not just
Coming to a person saying, Hey, okay, what are you doing working on? Okay, change it. Let's do something else. You cannot do that in remote settings. Absolutely.
Michael K Cobb (09:38.178)
No. You know, that look, and and and you you're your your business and and and experiences in the human resources, HR, right? And there's that concept of the water cooler or the coffee pot or or the cigarette, you know, mm butt butth holder outside or whatever, right? You know, and so in each of those scenarios, what you have is an informal information sharing event, right? People at the coffee pot or the outside smoking and or whatever. And and so it's an informal
information sharing event. And so when you go remote, this informal network largely disappears. And so yes, you have to come back to protocol and systems. One of the things that we did very very early and and we continue to do it wasn't we did it and forgotten we we did it and we we modified it, tweaked it, made it better is to create these hmm
I'm gonna call them institutions, right? So let me let me use the word institutions. We've created these institutions whereby people are forced, I mean not really, but but forced to participate in Zoom meetings on camera. Absolutely. Nobody's off camera ever on our Zoom meetings. And and so, you know, you want this engagement, right? So so th there are these protocols that say, hey, look, when we're in a Zoom meeting, we're fully present. All of us are fully present. And then we try to do, and we haven't done a great job with this.
but we've done some of it and and they're they're sort of the fun activities where you know you come together for a a cocktail, sip, you know, sip and talk. And and and I think a lot actually what I think is happening is is that organically a lot of that's happening maybe at the at the management level, not at the senior management level, certainly not at my level. but the other thing that we've done is we we you know we've we've we've spent a lot of money on airline tickets, right? I fly to these destinations, we fly people to meet.
and we we have as many belly-to-belly encounters as we possibly can. I was just in in Serbia and we flew a couple people to Serbia to all meet there so we could be together. It was just it was just convenient for my European team to come to Serbia because I had meetings in Serbia, right? And so we we do those kinds of things as often as we can to get our senior leadership together belly to belly for those, you know, really informal information sharing
Michael K Cobb (11:59.374)
times because you know again when you're when you're in a meeting, you have a start, you have a stop, you have an agenda, bing, bing, bang, bing, bang. Right. And and and that's really important. But the informal piece is also important and and and that's the harder part to get in a remote culture.
Daria Rudnik (12:14.85)
Yeah, and I love what you're saying. Like it's it's gotta be intentional. So you need to spend time and make effort to actually make that happen. It it's not happening like automatically. And it's good because even I mean, even in the office there are people who don't kind of feel isolated a bit for whatever reasons. But if you make intention to connect people, bring them all together, depending on the company's culture, that's that's how you make it work.
Michael K Cobb (12:39.945)
Absolutely.
Daria Rudnik (12:41.634)
I remember you said something that you don't do management, you do leadership.
Michael K Cobb (12:45.709)
That's true. I I I I I tell people all the time I am a terrible manager. On my best day, I am a good manager. On my best day, I'm a good manager. on most days, I'm a bad manager. And most of the time, you know, I'm a terrible manager, right? But but but I actually believe that I am a great leader most days. and on my best days, I'm a phenomenal leader, right? And so
The recognition that leadership and management are two very, very different things took me a long time to really get my arms around it. Probably took me 20 years, maybe 25 years of professional, you know, being in being in the computer business for a big chunk of that and then the the banking and and the development stuff, right? But for it took me 25 years from graduation of college to really understand the the the the I don't know the nuances, right? The deep differences between management and leadership and where my
expertise and my gifting is as opposed to where it's not. And and and I think that that's a that that understanding has let me become a far better leader, but it has also let our businesses, because we go out and we hire management. When I'm looking for somebody to come in and do something, I mean we want leaders, we want decision makers, right? But but I think that the the skill set that I try to always backfill behind me is management, right? Because
Like yeah, 'cause I don't possess it I very well. and so we can backfill the organization with managers, then you you really create that that that that that I don't the the the form and the framework that allows a business to be successful.
Daria Rudnik (14:28.026)
So what's the difference?
Michael K Cobb (14:30.061)
what's the difference? you know, leadership is inspiration. Sorry, sorry, I didn't mean to go off. Okay. Yeah. Leadership is inspiration. It's it's it's either pushing or pulling, guiding. That's leadership. It's it's working with people to bring out their best, right? That's leadership. Bringing out the best in others in whatever that capacity is. Management is helping somebody to do their job.
Daria Rudnik (14:34.19)
No no no no, I mean it's good, it is good. I mean the
Michael K Cobb (14:59.497)
And those two things are very, very different to me. and and and and and and I I find that I I know how I like to be managed. I I I I say this all the I just say this all the time. My best boss ever was a woman named Julia. And when I and and this was a consulting gig I took, but it was a little bit like a job. I had to show up, you know, once a week and run some meetings for them and stuff like that. It was a great gig. I walked into her office the first day. I'd known her for a while ahead of time. She said, Mike, kind of clear on what your job is? I'm like, Yeah, I kind of.
I know what I'm supposed to do. And this is like 15 minutes, right? My first day at doing this, right? And she she says, All right, if you have any questions, my door's always open. I'm like, Great, Julia, thanks. See ya. Walked out and like, I'm like, best job ever. I mean, we talked about stuff, but like, here's what you know what needs to be done. Yep, I know exactly what needs to be done. Great, go do it. Like to me, that was the perfect job because nobody was managing me.
Right. I had resources I could if I needed them, but but nobody managed me. But that's a unique characteristic. I think most people want some guidance and structure in their lives, in their work lives for sure. And and and what blew me away is we at one point, this going back into maybe early 2000s, 2004, 5, 6, you know, we hired a chief operating officer to come run our business, our development business. And I knew that when we hired a chief operating officer,
That performance would increase and and and that that we'd be a more efficient organization, we'd accomplish more for the same resources, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I I understood all that. What shocked me, probably this is act probably this is actually when I got this awareness. What shocked me was that not only did efficiency and production go up, morale went up. And I just like, I was like, How is that possible? Because if somebody tried to put a box around me.
My morale would take a nosedive. Like, I don't want to be in a box. Don't ever put me in a box, right? But most people wanted structure around their work life. And and it's the exact opposite of what I want. And I was managing people, this is why I'm not a great manager. I was managing people how I want to be managed, which is tell me what you need done and stay out of my way. Just just that's it. That's how I want to be managed, right? Most people want a lot more structure and a lot more direction.
Michael K Cobb (17:23.669)
And so when when Martin came on board and things improved in many ways, but morale improved, I I I did. I I really had like this double triple take of wow, like didn't see that coming. But it was a powerful awakening in my business leadership comprehension, right? Now I understood like that that's really important for people. And so we need to make sure that as an organization, we have management to give people who want structure.
And it's some people want a lot, some people want less, some people want, you know, whatever. I'm a it's a spectrum, right? But to be able to look at each of our people and give them the right amount of structure to let them be the best they can be in the business. And and and that was that was sh shocking, quite honestly. It was shocking to me. Yeah.
Daria Rudnik (18:12.038)
Well, thanks, Mike. That that's that's an incredible story. I mean, that's really great. And and and to those who are listening, it's it's it's again, it's about people need clarity, but they need it on a different level. Some people create clarity for themselves, some people need some more clarity from their managers, some people need clarity, I don't know, from the peers and colleagues, and kind of understanding where people are and creating the opportunity. Okay, here is the structure that we kind of operate and
Do you need more support? If you do need more support, here is a little bit more structure. If you don't need more support, go do that. Just do your job. Yeah, that's great.
Michael K Cobb (18:47.361)
Right, right. And and a great manager can can see that and deliver that, right? As a leader, I I really can't see it. And I and I certainly have not done a very good job of delivering it, which is why we now have managers in our organizations who do exactly that. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, and and and the other job of a leader, sorry, real quick, the other job of a leader is to I I call it see over the hill, see around the bend, right?
Daria Rudnik (18:54.395)
Mm-hmm.
Michael K Cobb (19:14.987)
And and there's there there's some intuitiveness in that, right? You're you're making some guesses. And and and I think that that that piece of leadership is critically important because you this is and you don't always get it right, but if you get it right more times than you get it wrong, and if you get it wrong, you make a quick pivot. You know, humility, I think humility is a huge part of leadership, right? Because if if you if you get it wrong, you've got to admit that fast. Make the change, make the adjustment, right? But
But if you can get it right more often than you get it wrong, like you know, kind of taking a guess, like what's coming next, like forecasting, right? I I love Yogi Berra. His quote is, you know, the prediction is really hard, especially when it's about the future. Right? I mean it's such a great line, right? That guy had so many great one-liners, right? But but but but right, prediction is really hard, especially about the future.
But leaders have to do that, right? Leaders have to make educated guesses. And they are guesses, right? We get as much information as we can get as quickly as we can. But sometimes there's a lot of holes in the data, right? And we still have to make that decision. And and so, you know, leadership is about risk taking. It's about being confident enough. This is the weird thing, right? You have to be confident enough to make decisions with limited data, little data, sometimes a lot of data, but but many times not very much data.
So there's a high level of confidence, but you also in that same person have to have enough humility that when you get it wrong, you can quickly admit it and pivot. And so that that's a that's those two those two characteristics I think are fundamentally important for leaders.
Daria Rudnik (20:57.455)
Yeah, I love that confidence and humility, being confident, making decision and then kind of humble enough to to change to say I was wrong. Yeah, let's do something else. You know what, Mike, I'm like really curious about you as a business owner, or maybe like your businesses. How do you build partnership with HR? How HR is building partnership with with you?
Michael K Cobb (21:06.733)
Right. Yep.
Michael K Cobb (21:21.057)
Yeah. You know, a a HR is incredibly important. it it it does a lot of things, right? There's there's what I would call the functionality of human resources, right? Somebody has to place ads to recruit people, somebody has to look through resumes, somebody has to make interviews, right? Then pass off the candidates to the department, head, whoever's supposed to you know, get that person, so to speak, right? And so you you got the functionality. You've got keeping track of payroll, keeping track of vacation time.
So you got all of those hard elements. I'm gonna call them the hard elements of HR, right? But then you got the soft element of HR. And and and and and both are critically important. but but the soft element, I I call it the you know, the the the the mother hen, right? It's it's it's and and and not all HR people really have this. right? Sometimes it's somebody else in the organization that provides this, you know, mother hen kind of
personality right? It it it's the it's the in the Myers Briggs, it would be an SF, right? A sensing-feeling person. right? Who can listen and and really understand where somebody's coming from and how they're feeling about things. Because work's stressful. Like you you're it's interpersonal. I mean you're I mean you're working with other people all the time. And if it was perfect, it's not people are people. right? People get along sometimes. They don't get along sometimes, right? And there's stresses in work. So there's there's this emotional
element to work the work life, which again, I mean it's you know, it's eight, 10, sometimes, you know, whatever, 14 hours, right? Of a day. right? So it's the biggest part of your waking day for most people. right? And so like the there's an emotional piece to this. And so a a great organization has at least one, it depends on the size of the organization, or several. They can be formal, that could be the person in the HR office.
Or they can be informal, they can be people in the organization who just naturally can talk to people and understand what's going on and help people kind of work through challenges, interpersonal challenges, emotional challenges. And and so you to me, the HR human resource, the human piece, right, is probably in the end far more important than the hard piece, which is keeping track of people's vacations and stuff like that. I mean, it not not that anybody not that anybody can do that, right?
Michael K Cobb (23:43.032)
But it it's that's much more process oriented. If you create the process for doing those kinds of things, it can work with oversight. right? Being a person who can really deal with people's challenges, whether they're social, emotional, spiritual, right? That that that's a gifting. And and so I think organizations that have a person who has that gifting that people can come to and trust, it's a high trust, it's a really high trust position too, because
They have to be sort of the one way black hole, right? Stuff comes in, it doesn't go back out. And and if you have that person or people in your organization, then you're gonna have a much healthier organization because people can come, dump, get advice. Well, look, Bob's going through some tough times right now. You know, his wife's leaving him. G cut him a break. You know, just cut him a break, right? And and and that would be public information, right? I mean, it wouldn't be you're not spilling out of the black hole, but but like there are things going on in Bob's life. Please just cut him a break and you guys, you know.
You guys used to get along and I know you have to work together, whatever. So that kind of healing that can be brought by this gifted this gifting type of person is is powerfully important in an organization.
Daria Rudnik (24:55.118)
Yeah. It's kind of supporting the culture that you want to build, the kind of being make sure people feel feel good. And you mentioned trust. And I'm curious. I mean, there are lots of ways HR can build trust with employees, but it's also very important that HR builds trust with business owners, leadership team. How what would you say? Like what would you would you recommend to HR leaders building trust? How can they build trust with business owners and and leadership teams?
Michael K Cobb (24:59.073)
Yes, absolutely.
Michael K Cobb (25:24.311)
Hmm. Well, that's a great question. Yeah. No, it's a great that's a great question. you know, I I think that I think ultimately it's always about engagement. right? It it's about engaging with the leadership team and and and and and I hate to say forcing their way into meetings, right? But but certainly on a on a one on one basis. You know, as a leader, I I I know who my I know who my
Daria Rudnik (25:25.798)
With you.
Michael K Cobb (25:51.554)
caring, sensitive people are in the organization. And in fact, in my organization, I have somebody who kind of handles the hard stuff right? In in in Portugal. And then I've got a couple people who kind of are the people that people naturally go to when they've got a problem and they're upset. They they they don't go to the HR department. They go to a couple of these people. And and so the the the the the the challenge for a leader, right, is to identify those people and then make sure that you are engaging with
All of them, right? I mean, the the the hard side, but the soft side far more important. And so I think that that HR, if you're if you're in that position as an HR professional, you have to take the initiative to reach out to leadership and and and and say, hey, this is this is what we're doing, this is why we're doing it, right? How how can I be helpful to you? And and when anyone in the organization, whether it's HR or sales or marketing or accounting, finance, I don't care, when somebody comes to me and says, Mike,
How can I be more helpful to you? Boom, my ear goes up because most of the time people are bringing me problems. Mike, we need that. No, no, no. Very few people show up and say, How can I be more helpful? Right. And when they do, it's a okay, we can have that conversation. Right. And so I think that's that's the great entree. That's a great opening line for HR. How can I help you, Mike, to you know, be able to do more? How can I help the company? What are you seeing where I can, you know, I can make a difference?
Daria Rudnik (26:55.985)
Yeah.
Michael K Cobb (27:19.467)
And and those are the kinds of things that that I think leadership responds to very well because you know, we're we're we're able to then position that element into our thinking and our and our forward projection. right? I I I don't know. I I think that would be my answer.
Daria Rudnik (27:37.36)
Yeah, I love the question. I mean it yeah, it's a great question. How can it be helpful to you? I mean, you you understand the person, you you build relationship and you can do actually something meaningful that would help them organization and and and you. Yeah.
Michael K Cobb (27:47.906)
Yeah.
Michael K Cobb (27:51.819)
Right, right.
Daria Rudnik (27:54.406)
Mike, I know have a book. Tell us a little bit about your book.
Michael K Cobb (27:56.59)
I do have a book. It's called How to Buy Your Home Overseas and Get It Right the First Time. And the the thing is that it it's an interesting book, and I I'm not sure I love the title because I think the title is maybe too constrictive. it was recommended because it was going on Amazon as a you know how-to book. right? So that that was a thing. But but the book is really about how do you transact, whether it's buying a home, making an investment, or just simply
living overseas. I got I got a couple of chapters on culture shock and things like that right? And what what it means to move there. And so so the the the thing about the book is, which I I believe is powerfully important for leaders, right? Is that that it yeah we have to think outside the box. There's a great quote from one of my college alumni and I tore it out of the Alumni magazine, I think maybe the first year I graduated, so 1987 or something. And and it said,
There is no competition outside the masses. Strive to be outside the competition. And so I think the the idea of being outside the box is really important, finding a need and serving a need. And and when you're out in this uncomfortable zone, let me just call it that. right? There are techniques, there are ways that we can think about things. And my book largely is about humility, Daria. That that that's it it it just starts off with.
When we don't know what we don't know. We don't. We we don't know what we don't know. And then the other axiom in the book is we also have to forget what we think we know, right? We have to give up our assumptions. Because when we go outside our home country or our home turf and we're gonna transact in another country, another culture, another language, right, another legal system, whatever it is, all all of the above. right? In some cases, right, things are different. And so whatever we think will happen.
Daria Rudnik (29:42.599)
No.
Michael K Cobb (29:53.408)
Maybe it'll happen, maybe it won't. But we also don't know the possibilities of things that might come at us. And so when we're working in an environment like that, the the the the amygdala in your brain, right, is this filtering mechanism, right? Your your body hears the air conditioning in the background, it hears the car go by, it it feels the weight of your feet on the floor, it feels the clothing touching you, right? But but until I mentioned all those things, I I didn't
Think about them, right? Because the amygdala filters out like 95% of every sensory thing so that we can stay focused on what we want. And when we go outside our home turf, like we have to let our amygdala pay more attention to lots more things because we need that sensory input. We need to be on our toes, so to speak, so that we see something that doesn't make sense. Well, why didn't it make sense? What was that? You know, and and that is found fundamentally rooted in humbleness.
Like, whoa, I don't quite understand that. What's going on? And and and and and the best thing that we can do as leaders when we're leading is this, you know, confidence and humility, right? And when we go overseas or we go outside our home country, it's both of those things are far more important, but humility taking the lead. So the book is really about how we can i whether we're going outside our home country or not. I I think the lessons of the book on how we can
Become more humble, but yet retain our confidence when we do make decisions. that that's fundamentally what the book's about, with examples of going overseas. Because I think those are tremendous stressors. Right. No, no, when you go overseas, they're stressors. And when we're stressed, right? I mean, they talk about, look, they're always talking about the financial system and the banking system. We're going to stress test it. right? Well, you know, when you go overseas or go outside your home country, you are stress testing your assumptions. You're stress testing your
Daria Rudnik (31:30.724)
Well
Michael K Cobb (31:49.294)
cultural awareness, right? and and and I think all of these things are wonderful. They're they're fun. They're you know adventurous people love them. but they are stressful. so how do we deal with that? Yeah.
Daria Rudnik (32:02.149)
Yeah. I wish I had your book four years ago when I was moving from Russia to Israel. Lots of stress dance, lots.
Michael K Cobb (32:07.627)
Okay. Yeah. Right. You know, Daria, that's right. You you absolutely know. Yeah. And and and and and what we find is that, you know, if we if we just have a few little quickie techniques and little quickie ideas and concepts that we can lock into our brain and begin to filter through that, we will find the process far less painful and far more enjoyable. And and ultimately that's it. right? I mean, reducing pain is great.
But increasing pleasure, right? And making it a much more pleasurable experience, ultimately is I I think better than the reducing the pain. right? Have fun. Enjoy it. Find the adventure. Yeah.
Daria Rudnik (32:49.905)
Yeah, let's do that. Well, thank you so much, Mike. It was an amazing conversation. I mean, we've learned so much about building like building multiple businesses, the difference between leadership and management, how important it's for managers to build structure that is relevant for people out there to understand the kind of the level of structure people need, the importance of understanding how people feel and building trust with with the leaders by asking one simple question. What can I do for you? How can I make your life easier?
How people can find you? How people can reach out to you and and find your book?
Michael K Cobb (33:25.089)
Yeah, easy. my website is michaelkcobb.com and you can find it there. And if the I'm I'll send you the link to the book. I think you're gonna put it in the show notes, available on Amazon. And we'd love to, you know, we'd love to and by the way, for anybody thinking about doing business outside their home country, you know, one of the things we do is is we actually help folks with that as well as consultants.
And so again, we can help people in many different ways. ultimately, you know, I just really, really encourage people to strive to be outside the masses, look outside the boxes, find a need that needs to be served, engage it and and enjoy a wonderfully adventurous life. Yeah.
Daria Rudnik (34:11.461)
Amazing. Well, thank you so much, Mike. All the links are in the notes to this episode. Please reach out to Michael and he's lots of knowledge to share. Get his book. And if you like this episode, please give us five stars on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Subscribe to our YouTube channel and stay tuned for the next episodes. Bye.