Why Training Fails and How to Build L&D That Changes Behavior with Maria Kolesnikoff, Former Head of Talent Management
Maria Kolesnikoff spent 20 years across every HR function—recruitment, compensation, organizational design, and change management—before becoming head of talent management at the corporate investment business unit of a large bank, and now works as an ICF PCC coach. In this episode of Built by People Leaders with Daria Rudnik, Maria Kolesnikoff argues that effective learning and development must be built as infrastructure across performance management, compensation, succession planning, and recruitment—not delivered as one-touch training events that end when people leave the room.
The friction Maria Kolesnikoff unpacks matters most for People teams in the 100–1,500 employee range, where informal oversight breaks down and standalone programs stop working. Content-only training covers learning but skips practice and feedback, so behavior never changes. Maria Kolesnikoff shows how systemic incentives—not entertainment—push people out of their comfort zone and make new behaviors stick.
The friction Maria Kolesnikoff unpacks matters most for People teams in the 100–1,500 employee range, where informal oversight breaks down and standalone programs stop working. Content-only training covers learning but skips practice and feedback, so behavior never changes. Maria Kolesnikoff shows how systemic incentives—not entertainment—push people out of their comfort zone and make new behaviors stick.
Challenges Addressed
- Training that delivers content but no behavior change: Maria Kolesnikoff explains that content-focused programs only cover learning, leaving out the practice and feedback that the full development cycle requires.
- Low buy-in and disengagement in talent programs: After running a talent program for one year at her banking organization, Maria Kolesnikoff found weak engagement because stakeholders were never involved in the design.
- The HR–business language gap: Maria Kolesnikoff notes that most HR and L&D professionals speak in behaviors and psychology, while leaders respond to numbers and business outcomes.
Actionable Takeaways
- Embed development into promotion and compensation criteria: Maria Kolesnikoff redesigned her banking program so candidates needed set study hours, assessment scores, strong talent reviews, an identified successor, and evidence of sharing expertise—all tied to bonus and promotion eligibility.
- Use design thinking to co-create programs: Interview representatives from every stakeholder group—business units, HR functions, leaders, and participants. People advocate for programs built from their own ideas.
- Engage stakeholders horizontally and vertically at the design stage: Involve peer HR functions and business units alongside leaders and leaders-of-leaders before launch, so the whole system supports the change.
Questions This Episode Answers
- Why does our leadership training never change behavior? Maria Kolesnikoff explains that content-based training covers only learning and skips practice and feedback. Behavior change requires systemic infrastructure—performance management, compensation, and incentives—that pushes people beyond their comfort zone and rewards new habits until they become the default.
- How do I get buy-in from stakeholders on a new L&D program? Maria Kolesnikoff recommends design thinking: interview business leaders, HR peers, and participants during the design phase and build the program from their input. People support programs built on their own ideas, which raises engagement and adoption.
- Does gamification or edutainment make training more effective? Maria Kolesnikoff argues that edutainment masks the real problem of low motivation. Instead of entertaining participants, clarify the personal and career benefits of the program and build systems that make participation advantageous.
Daria Rudnik (00:02.186)
Welcome to Built by People Leaders Podcast. I'm your host, Daria Rudnik, and this show is for HR and L&D leaders, those building real impact from within and shaping AI ready organizations. Each episode, I sit down with people leaders to talk about how they build strong cultures and shape organizations around them. It's about HR being seen as a true business partner by leaders and by HR themselves. Let's go. Let's get into that.
And I'm very excited about this conversation today. And I have a very special guest, Maria Kolesnikoff. She's a former head of talent management in banking and now ICF PCC coach, helping managers lead better and professionals grow faster. Welcome, Maria.
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (00:45.031)
Well thank you for having me, Daria. It's so it's a pleasure to be here with you.
Daria Rudnik (00:50.432)
It's a pleasure to have you here. like my first question to you is well your experience tell us what's the difference between learning and development programs and initiatives focused on content versus development programs focused on behavioral change?
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (01:10.823)
Thank you. That's a great question. This is what I have been thinking for a long time on my own and talking to other leaders, HR leaders as well. And the main difference is the program focused on content, focused on the content. It's a one-touch, one point, one moment. You get people into the training room, they listen to what what has been said.
They come back and that's it. They come back to their workplace and that's it. And nothing changes. And the reason is because this is not a behavior change development program. Because the development change behavior change development program is something that is embedded in organizational system, in the structure, in all the processes, in performance management.
In compensation and benefit, in recruitment, in learning and development. So the system, the infrastructure is there to support the behavior change. Because when you think about the development cycle, it's about learning, practicing, and assessing. So the content-based trainings, they only cover learning. There is no practice and there is no
feedback and what infrastructure does is that exactly these two other things practice and feedback. This is why it is so important to think about any development program on a systemic level rather than just on the level of I'm I'm gonna tell you this this is in a nutshell
Daria Rudnik (02:57.045)
Yeah. Yeah. I I l I mean I I love the systemic approach. Absolutely. I mean i and and it's you're so right saying that we do have the infrastructure. Like there is a compensation, there is like promotions, people's conversations, there are lots of things around that that could support this behavior change. And it learning is not some kind of standalone project and people come back and nothing changes, like you said.
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (03:20.848)
He yeah.
Yeah, that here's the thing though, because the we're people are lazy. Okay. Let's admit that. People are lazy, they like to be in their comfort zone. If we talk about the behavior change, it means that we are pushing them outside of the comfort zone. So they have to have a right incentive to go out and do something that is not easy for them because
Every th every new thing requires the effort, it requires some courage to do that. So they have to be incentivized to do so. Otherwise, we're gonna stay lazy and we're gonna stay in our comfort zone. Right? And this It is exactly what infrastructure does, it it pushes people out of their comfort zone, it gives it enough incentive to really start showing up different skills,
Daria Rudnik (04:07.032)
Yeah. Changes heart.
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (04:21.168)
different habits, different behaviors. And after a a lot of time of repetition, that becomes their new default and that becomes their new comfort zone. But they have to get there first.
Daria Rudnik (04:34.904)
Well, how did you come up to this like idea? What's your professional journey?
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (04:37.325)
Yeah.
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (04:42.416)
Well, I have about twenty years of human resources experience under my belt in corporate world, back in Russia where I'm from originally. And I have really worked in every HR function. I have been a recruiter, I have been doing compensations and benefits, I have been doing training and development, I have been doing organizational design and
organizational change and organizational development. I have been doing nationwide HR projects like integration after emerging acquisition for a couple of big companies. So I've seen it all quite honestly. And that allowed me to really see a chart function as a system, not as a just a separate set of functions. So
My last corporate job was head of talent management in corporate investment business unit of biggest Russian bank. And this is where I was actually able to kind of walk my talk, so to say. Really have that put that into practice and really see that it is working. That kind of formed my
Opinion and experience on that, this is how the things should be done because I've seen that, I've done that, and I've seen the success out of that. But going back to my journey, and if you're interested, we can revisit this example. But going back to my journey, nine years ago I moved to the United States, and this is where I started my coaching practice, and I have been coaching ever since. And I've worked with leaders, I've worked with managers, I've worked with individual contributors.
Daria Rudnik (06:12.223)
Mm.
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (06:33.528)
And I help them to discover their leadership potential and grow their careers. And clearly my HR background is really really helpful, as well as my own career journey, because I have grown from individual contributor up to top manager and then went to middle management. So my my career was also very impressive and hectic at the same time. Yeah, so that's a that's in in a nutshell.
Daria Rudnik (06:54.423)
Okay.
Daria Rudnik (07:00.748)
Yeah.
Well, thanks for sharing this. I well, like I can heal like when you said that learning and development initiatives are a system practice. And yes, when you have that experience in different HR functions, that really helps see that perspective. I I'm curious for those who a L&D professionals who don't have that experience, what would you recommend? How how do you even start thinking systemically about your processes?
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (07:35.101)
Well, systemic thinking or seeing a bigger picture is the key here. I think what's important to understand and ask yourself as well is whatever I'm doing, how is that embedded into the organization? How does that influence not just me, not just my target audience, but the organization as a whole? And where is the
bottlenecks and where you can find the support. And you need to look horizontally and vertically, right? What are the neighboring functions that you can include into the process so they would support and advocate for you? How can you engage leaders and leaders of leaders into the process so they support that? Only when you have this
360, I guess, or I don't know, if you look at the 3D model, you know, it really is about that. Understanding how whatever you're doing is impacting everybody. You know, like the rule of the system, you change one element, the whole system changes. That's how you need to think about it. Whatever you're doing, like what is your goal? What are you trying to achieve? How that will create a change on the organizational level.
And then how will that impact everybody and how you need to engage them into the process so it would work. I don't have I answered your question?
Daria Rudnik (09:08.268)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, absolutely. And I love how you say about the kind of looking from different perspective, looking at leadership, looking up, looking down. And I know you have a story to share. Like some case studies. How do how I mean not a case study, but the real case that you program you've implemented.
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (09:21.022)
Yeah.
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (09:29.046)
Well, it's a it's a it's a learning story, quite honestly. So early in my career, this is how it started. I mean, I'm gonna start from a long time ago. This is how it started. When I was pretty young in my career, I had an opportunity to teach students in my alma mater. And one of the courses that I have created was based on the book War for Talent.
And this is the book that has been written by McKinsey consultants at the end of ninety nineteen nineties. And ever since I read this book, I have become a huge proponent of talent management and how it works and what does it mean. And they do look into everything as well at the recruitment, at the assessment, at the performance management, at the bonuses and compensations.
you know, hiring, firing, all of that. So this is kinda how this idea was built in my head as well. So when I had a chance to put that into practice clearly I used that. So I have been running the talent talent development program for the organization where I the the the the banking organization where I worked and I started with really
putting everything I had in my head onto the paper and then really implemented that. So I have been promoting that, you know, people were using this program and it there was something there, there was some result there. But I myself is a system thinker and strategic thinker. And I know that every process, first you experiment and pilot things, and then you go back and you reassess.
and then you improve improve. So that's exactly what I did. After the one year of running this program, I sat down, took looked at the bigger picture and thought, okay, yeah it's kind of running. I'm not sure people are really buying it. I'm not sure if people are really engaged into that. So I need to take a different approach. And this is where it was really about involving everybody
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (11:54.211)
every HR function into the process, involving all the stakeholders into into the process. I I used the method is called design thinking, hired consultants, and we ran that project where we interviewed everybody, I mean not everybody, but the repres representatives from each target audience from different business functions, from HR functions, leaders, participants,
participants from different telon groups that we had. We collected tons of information, but people were really willing to share what they have experienced, what they would imagine it should look like for them. And then we put the kind of the new program together and this time it was really, really embedded into all the chart functions. So we made sure that in order for somebody to, for example, to get promoted,
they need to be included in some category that n they need to follow certain criteries, they need to have certain hours of studies, they need to have a certain assessment knowledge assessment level level, they needed to have a re a good talent review, they needed to have a successor, they needed to share their expertise, you know like and and all of that, when all of that is present, then that influences the bonus.
that influences the chances of them being promoted, they kinda move in higher in them in the pool to be promoted, to be looked at at first. And and because we engaged people into that process, the acceptance and the engagement into the program was much, much higher. So that kind of was my learning curve here to understand that you have
You wanna you want that to work, you need to engage everybody at the very early stage and then you need to ensure that everybody's on board. And again, like I said, horizontally and vertically. So and that was that was a really successful program.
Daria Rudnik (14:08.664)
That is a great example. and I hear like there was a succession planning part, there was a compensation part, there was a performance management part. So it's not just about learning, it's about lots of different HR initiatives, and it it does require kind of conversations with your fellow HR colleagues, but also stakeholders and participants. And I mean, they really love talking about their experience and and they love to contribute. Like when you go to some people and say, Hey, help me make this program better, or
Help me create a great program for you. They would love to share their ideas. I mean, maybe you're not gonna use all of them, but at least you get their involvement, you get their perspective. You can create better programs when you know what people really need and what people really want. So I mean it's it's an amazing example.
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (14:56.016)
Yeah, but and again, the best way to get the buy-in from stakeholders is to use their own ideas, right? Because who would say no to their own ideas? That's kind of counterintuitive, right? So when you engage them at the early stage and you collect all this and then and they know that they have been part of that process, of course they're gonna support that, of course they're gonna advocate for that. And it makes our life and our job
Daria Rudnik (15:09.935)
Yeah.
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (15:25.53)
our our I mean talent management or training and development or L&D professional. That makes our job so much easier quite honestly. Yeah. But I think yeah. No no no no what I was going to say is that what's important here for for L&D professionals is to really come into the process with open mind.
Daria Rudnik (15:37.21)
Yeah. And you can like feel this connection. I'm sorry, yeah, go ahead.
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (15:52.023)
not with not with the attitude I know how to teach you and I'm gonna do that. No. it's what's important is to be open minded and be curious and really keep asking questions. That's this is where you can get the high engagement, high involvement and better results and more success, clearly.
Daria Rudnik (16:07.428)
Mm-hmm.
Daria Rudnik (16:16.515)
Yeah, yeah. And while while talking to stakeholders, you understand business better and you understand how your program actually helps them achieve their business goals and it's not just something that we all need to learn competences and we learn no we all need to learn leadership skills.
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (16:33.138)
Well, you know what? I think this is another really big challenge for all HR people. Okay, I'll take that back. Most of HR people is that we talk different languages. We don't talk business language, unfortunately. We are like all in a hum human side, which is great. We are in the psyche, we are like in behaviors and business like.
That's a gibberish for them, right? What are you talking about? They didn't understand numbers, right? They understand dollar model, whatever currency it is. And the fun fact is that and I think this is my advantage really and is that I actually graduated from the business school. So I my my first education is management.
So I understand how the business works. I understand how each function is connected and how they work together. So I was always able to convey that to the business. And that was so usually pretty unique. So they would say, Whoa you're such a good psychologist, which would always make me laugh. But at the end of the day, this is what really helps to bridge that gap of between two
like being able to translate human language into the business language and bring them along with you so then you can work together and you can achieve goals. So I think that this is another like very crucial theme for all HRs is learning that skill and I'm I'm even thinking that probably management course should be something that is required as a
part of your professional education, part of the HR professional education for sure. So they can understand the business so that then they can speak the business.
Daria Rudnik (18:39.62)
Yeah. Yeah. And I know like many HR people came to the profession from different backgrounds. And so if you don't have that management education, Maria just said a very magic word, which is curiosity. Go ask questions. And that's that's how we learn. That's how we all learn. I I have a question, Maria. there's a what do you think about edutainment? And I mean, my take is at the beginning I f it felt like it's an interesting idea to like
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (18:44.69)
Mm-hmm.
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (18:55.228)
Two.
Daria Rudnik (19:08.922)
keep people engaged so that they have fun, it's not boring. But honestly, it feels like we in this adutainment the second part becomes more important than the first one.
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (19:23.386)
And the second part is
Daria Rudnik (19:24.802)
The edutainment, I mean the e in edutainment the entertainment is more important than education. And I'm curious to like to hear your perspective on that.
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (19:30.068)
okay. Hmm.
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (19:36.819)
Well I think I think quite honestly although f if I think about myself and I think about how do I learn having some kind of a like competition with myself or having some kind of a like gamification like winning certain things and progressing that kind of supports me. However, in terms of the entertainment altogether
I think the education and learning works when the person is motivated to learn and get educated. And if they are motivated well
Do you really need to entertain them? I think this is really a trying to heal the broken arm with the band aid, quite honestly. It's kind of you know, it it steers your focus away from what the real point is. So the question is why are you here?
And why do I have to entertain you to keep you here? On the other hand, yes, you you know, like when the organizational change happens, when you need to learn new things. when you need to you know, I remember what we have been doing back back in my corporate years where everybody all of a sudden start running around with
Daria Rudnik (20:52.965)
Yeah.
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (21:15.926)
agile, big data, you know, all that. It was like 10 years ago. And people were scratching their heads, like, what the heck is that? So, how can you really and you understand that this is the tendency, right? This is where the world is going. You kind of have to catch up whether you want it or not. But in that case, I'm okay with the gamification, quite honestly. I think this is a good part.
in terms of the entertainment altogether, I'm not sure this is the right answer to the right pro problem, quite honestly. But what what I think you need to be doing is really working with the motivation of people and really explaining what is the benefit there for them. Again, going back to the buy-in, right? Even asking them, okay, so here's here's the status quo. This is this is the reality.
You know, we're not going back. We're only going forward. We have to really follow the tendencies, right? How you will benefit if you learn that. So let them motivate themselves to be involved in the educational process. And I think this is much more sustainable approach here, rather than, hey, let me entertain you while you're learning.
Daria Rudnik (22:32.805)
Yeah.
And I love this shift in the focus. Like if your leadership development program is not working, if people don't want to join, it's not a question how can I entertain them better? How can I add more fun? What's the crazy activity that they would love? But more like, okay, how do I build a system that supports this program? How do I make sure that this program really gives something that they need? And how do I make sure that they know that they will get this from this program? So it's again comes back to systemic approach.
and managing stakeholders and making programs that really help them progress and grow in the organization. I love that.
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (23:17.044)
Thank you.
Daria Rudnik (23:18.073)
Well, thank you, Marie. It i it is an amazing conversation. I've learned so much. I have one final question for you, which I ask every guest, and that is if you were to change if you had a magic wand and could change one thing and solve one biggest problem of HR business leaders, HR leaders, what would that be?
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (23:25.01)
Okay.
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (23:43.266)
Ooh. Can I can I have three wishes?
Daria Rudnik (23:48.919)
One. I know we won a lot.
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (23:50.387)
I think that what would be really beneficial to all HR people and L&D people is really adopting the change agent mentality.
And this is together with this systemic approach that we have been talking about, because when you see the problem on a systemic level, you also need everybody on the systemic level to be involved in order for you to solve it. But in a lot of times that requires the change from bottom up or from top down, because you know like
Like we say in Russian, the fish rots from the head, right? So we have to start from the very top, and we have to ensure that all the necessary values and behaviors trickling down from the very top. But how do you get there? I think that's kind of the way of change management, but you need to advocate for that.
When I say you, I mean HR people or L&D people in particular. And this is where be having this change agent mindset is so important because this is how you go and convince others that they actually need the change, even though it is a going outside of the comfort zone, but the incentive should be really good.
Daria Rudnik (25:11.857)
Mm.
Daria Rudnik (25:35.363)
Yeah. Or the pressure is so hard that you just cannot ignore that.
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (25:39.408)
I'd rather you know, like I'd rather stick to the carrot than to the stick.
Daria Rudnik (25:41.657)
It can't
I mean people motivate like people motivations differ in having both. But again, I agree. Like it's a very strong point. So being I mean, I really want us to understand that the value we bring to the organization and that being these kind of change agents, being able to bring all the stakeholders together to create programs that will change behavior and let people grow and let organizations grow is a it's a huge opportunity and it's so interesting and it's kind of stepping out of canf our comfort zone as well.
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (25:48.287)
Yeah.
Daria Rudnik (26:14.917)
Well, thank you so much, Maria. How people can find you? How they can reach out?
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (26:21.872)
LinkedIn for sure. I think if you type in Maria Kolesnikoff you will find me there. It's very easy. Or you can go to my website, it is yourwayup.coach
Daria Rudnik (26:36.783)
And we have all the links to Maria's LinkedIn and website in the notes to this episode. And thank you so much, Maria, for your insights. Thanks for sharing your story. Thanks for talking about this systemic approach and curiosity as something that will help you learn business and help you create programs that people really need. And thank you for to to our listeners for staying with us till the end. If you like this episode, please give us five stars on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.
subscribe to our YouTube channel and stay tuned for the next episodes. Bye.
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (27:08.135)
Thank you, bye.
Welcome to Built by People Leaders Podcast. I'm your host, Daria Rudnik, and this show is for HR and L&D leaders, those building real impact from within and shaping AI ready organizations. Each episode, I sit down with people leaders to talk about how they build strong cultures and shape organizations around them. It's about HR being seen as a true business partner by leaders and by HR themselves. Let's go. Let's get into that.
And I'm very excited about this conversation today. And I have a very special guest, Maria Kolesnikoff. She's a former head of talent management in banking and now ICF PCC coach, helping managers lead better and professionals grow faster. Welcome, Maria.
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (00:45.031)
Well thank you for having me, Daria. It's so it's a pleasure to be here with you.
Daria Rudnik (00:50.432)
It's a pleasure to have you here. like my first question to you is well your experience tell us what's the difference between learning and development programs and initiatives focused on content versus development programs focused on behavioral change?
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (01:10.823)
Thank you. That's a great question. This is what I have been thinking for a long time on my own and talking to other leaders, HR leaders as well. And the main difference is the program focused on content, focused on the content. It's a one-touch, one point, one moment. You get people into the training room, they listen to what what has been said.
They come back and that's it. They come back to their workplace and that's it. And nothing changes. And the reason is because this is not a behavior change development program. Because the development change behavior change development program is something that is embedded in organizational system, in the structure, in all the processes, in performance management.
In compensation and benefit, in recruitment, in learning and development. So the system, the infrastructure is there to support the behavior change. Because when you think about the development cycle, it's about learning, practicing, and assessing. So the content-based trainings, they only cover learning. There is no practice and there is no
feedback and what infrastructure does is that exactly these two other things practice and feedback. This is why it is so important to think about any development program on a systemic level rather than just on the level of I'm I'm gonna tell you this this is in a nutshell
Daria Rudnik (02:57.045)
Yeah. Yeah. I I l I mean I I love the systemic approach. Absolutely. I mean i and and it's you're so right saying that we do have the infrastructure. Like there is a compensation, there is like promotions, people's conversations, there are lots of things around that that could support this behavior change. And it learning is not some kind of standalone project and people come back and nothing changes, like you said.
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (03:20.848)
He yeah.
Yeah, that here's the thing though, because the we're people are lazy. Okay. Let's admit that. People are lazy, they like to be in their comfort zone. If we talk about the behavior change, it means that we are pushing them outside of the comfort zone. So they have to have a right incentive to go out and do something that is not easy for them because
Every th every new thing requires the effort, it requires some courage to do that. So they have to be incentivized to do so. Otherwise, we're gonna stay lazy and we're gonna stay in our comfort zone. Right? And this It is exactly what infrastructure does, it it pushes people out of their comfort zone, it gives it enough incentive to really start showing up different skills,
Daria Rudnik (04:07.032)
Yeah. Changes heart.
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (04:21.168)
different habits, different behaviors. And after a a lot of time of repetition, that becomes their new default and that becomes their new comfort zone. But they have to get there first.
Daria Rudnik (04:34.904)
Well, how did you come up to this like idea? What's your professional journey?
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (04:37.325)
Yeah.
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (04:42.416)
Well, I have about twenty years of human resources experience under my belt in corporate world, back in Russia where I'm from originally. And I have really worked in every HR function. I have been a recruiter, I have been doing compensations and benefits, I have been doing training and development, I have been doing organizational design and
organizational change and organizational development. I have been doing nationwide HR projects like integration after emerging acquisition for a couple of big companies. So I've seen it all quite honestly. And that allowed me to really see a chart function as a system, not as a just a separate set of functions. So
My last corporate job was head of talent management in corporate investment business unit of biggest Russian bank. And this is where I was actually able to kind of walk my talk, so to say. Really have that put that into practice and really see that it is working. That kind of formed my
Opinion and experience on that, this is how the things should be done because I've seen that, I've done that, and I've seen the success out of that. But going back to my journey, and if you're interested, we can revisit this example. But going back to my journey, nine years ago I moved to the United States, and this is where I started my coaching practice, and I have been coaching ever since. And I've worked with leaders, I've worked with managers, I've worked with individual contributors.
Daria Rudnik (06:12.223)
Mm.
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (06:33.528)
And I help them to discover their leadership potential and grow their careers. And clearly my HR background is really really helpful, as well as my own career journey, because I have grown from individual contributor up to top manager and then went to middle management. So my my career was also very impressive and hectic at the same time. Yeah, so that's a that's in in a nutshell.
Daria Rudnik (06:54.423)
Okay.
Daria Rudnik (07:00.748)
Yeah.
Well, thanks for sharing this. I well, like I can heal like when you said that learning and development initiatives are a system practice. And yes, when you have that experience in different HR functions, that really helps see that perspective. I I'm curious for those who a L&D professionals who don't have that experience, what would you recommend? How how do you even start thinking systemically about your processes?
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (07:35.101)
Well, systemic thinking or seeing a bigger picture is the key here. I think what's important to understand and ask yourself as well is whatever I'm doing, how is that embedded into the organization? How does that influence not just me, not just my target audience, but the organization as a whole? And where is the
bottlenecks and where you can find the support. And you need to look horizontally and vertically, right? What are the neighboring functions that you can include into the process so they would support and advocate for you? How can you engage leaders and leaders of leaders into the process so they support that? Only when you have this
360, I guess, or I don't know, if you look at the 3D model, you know, it really is about that. Understanding how whatever you're doing is impacting everybody. You know, like the rule of the system, you change one element, the whole system changes. That's how you need to think about it. Whatever you're doing, like what is your goal? What are you trying to achieve? How that will create a change on the organizational level.
And then how will that impact everybody and how you need to engage them into the process so it would work. I don't have I answered your question?
Daria Rudnik (09:08.268)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, absolutely. And I love how you say about the kind of looking from different perspective, looking at leadership, looking up, looking down. And I know you have a story to share. Like some case studies. How do how I mean not a case study, but the real case that you program you've implemented.
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (09:21.022)
Yeah.
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (09:29.046)
Well, it's a it's a it's a learning story, quite honestly. So early in my career, this is how it started. I mean, I'm gonna start from a long time ago. This is how it started. When I was pretty young in my career, I had an opportunity to teach students in my alma mater. And one of the courses that I have created was based on the book War for Talent.
And this is the book that has been written by McKinsey consultants at the end of ninety nineteen nineties. And ever since I read this book, I have become a huge proponent of talent management and how it works and what does it mean. And they do look into everything as well at the recruitment, at the assessment, at the performance management, at the bonuses and compensations.
you know, hiring, firing, all of that. So this is kinda how this idea was built in my head as well. So when I had a chance to put that into practice clearly I used that. So I have been running the talent talent development program for the organization where I the the the the banking organization where I worked and I started with really
putting everything I had in my head onto the paper and then really implemented that. So I have been promoting that, you know, people were using this program and it there was something there, there was some result there. But I myself is a system thinker and strategic thinker. And I know that every process, first you experiment and pilot things, and then you go back and you reassess.
and then you improve improve. So that's exactly what I did. After the one year of running this program, I sat down, took looked at the bigger picture and thought, okay, yeah it's kind of running. I'm not sure people are really buying it. I'm not sure if people are really engaged into that. So I need to take a different approach. And this is where it was really about involving everybody
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (11:54.211)
every HR function into the process, involving all the stakeholders into into the process. I I used the method is called design thinking, hired consultants, and we ran that project where we interviewed everybody, I mean not everybody, but the repres representatives from each target audience from different business functions, from HR functions, leaders, participants,
participants from different telon groups that we had. We collected tons of information, but people were really willing to share what they have experienced, what they would imagine it should look like for them. And then we put the kind of the new program together and this time it was really, really embedded into all the chart functions. So we made sure that in order for somebody to, for example, to get promoted,
they need to be included in some category that n they need to follow certain criteries, they need to have certain hours of studies, they need to have a certain assessment knowledge assessment level level, they needed to have a re a good talent review, they needed to have a successor, they needed to share their expertise, you know like and and all of that, when all of that is present, then that influences the bonus.
that influences the chances of them being promoted, they kinda move in higher in them in the pool to be promoted, to be looked at at first. And and because we engaged people into that process, the acceptance and the engagement into the program was much, much higher. So that kind of was my learning curve here to understand that you have
You wanna you want that to work, you need to engage everybody at the very early stage and then you need to ensure that everybody's on board. And again, like I said, horizontally and vertically. So and that was that was a really successful program.
Daria Rudnik (14:08.664)
That is a great example. and I hear like there was a succession planning part, there was a compensation part, there was a performance management part. So it's not just about learning, it's about lots of different HR initiatives, and it it does require kind of conversations with your fellow HR colleagues, but also stakeholders and participants. And I mean, they really love talking about their experience and and they love to contribute. Like when you go to some people and say, Hey, help me make this program better, or
Help me create a great program for you. They would love to share their ideas. I mean, maybe you're not gonna use all of them, but at least you get their involvement, you get their perspective. You can create better programs when you know what people really need and what people really want. So I mean it's it's an amazing example.
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (14:56.016)
Yeah, but and again, the best way to get the buy-in from stakeholders is to use their own ideas, right? Because who would say no to their own ideas? That's kind of counterintuitive, right? So when you engage them at the early stage and you collect all this and then and they know that they have been part of that process, of course they're gonna support that, of course they're gonna advocate for that. And it makes our life and our job
Daria Rudnik (15:09.935)
Yeah.
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (15:25.53)
our our I mean talent management or training and development or L&D professional. That makes our job so much easier quite honestly. Yeah. But I think yeah. No no no no what I was going to say is that what's important here for for L&D professionals is to really come into the process with open mind.
Daria Rudnik (15:37.21)
Yeah. And you can like feel this connection. I'm sorry, yeah, go ahead.
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (15:52.023)
not with not with the attitude I know how to teach you and I'm gonna do that. No. it's what's important is to be open minded and be curious and really keep asking questions. That's this is where you can get the high engagement, high involvement and better results and more success, clearly.
Daria Rudnik (16:07.428)
Mm-hmm.
Daria Rudnik (16:16.515)
Yeah, yeah. And while while talking to stakeholders, you understand business better and you understand how your program actually helps them achieve their business goals and it's not just something that we all need to learn competences and we learn no we all need to learn leadership skills.
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (16:33.138)
Well, you know what? I think this is another really big challenge for all HR people. Okay, I'll take that back. Most of HR people is that we talk different languages. We don't talk business language, unfortunately. We are like all in a hum human side, which is great. We are in the psyche, we are like in behaviors and business like.
That's a gibberish for them, right? What are you talking about? They didn't understand numbers, right? They understand dollar model, whatever currency it is. And the fun fact is that and I think this is my advantage really and is that I actually graduated from the business school. So I my my first education is management.
So I understand how the business works. I understand how each function is connected and how they work together. So I was always able to convey that to the business. And that was so usually pretty unique. So they would say, Whoa you're such a good psychologist, which would always make me laugh. But at the end of the day, this is what really helps to bridge that gap of between two
like being able to translate human language into the business language and bring them along with you so then you can work together and you can achieve goals. So I think that this is another like very crucial theme for all HRs is learning that skill and I'm I'm even thinking that probably management course should be something that is required as a
part of your professional education, part of the HR professional education for sure. So they can understand the business so that then they can speak the business.
Daria Rudnik (18:39.62)
Yeah. Yeah. And I know like many HR people came to the profession from different backgrounds. And so if you don't have that management education, Maria just said a very magic word, which is curiosity. Go ask questions. And that's that's how we learn. That's how we all learn. I I have a question, Maria. there's a what do you think about edutainment? And I mean, my take is at the beginning I f it felt like it's an interesting idea to like
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (18:44.69)
Mm-hmm.
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (18:55.228)
Two.
Daria Rudnik (19:08.922)
keep people engaged so that they have fun, it's not boring. But honestly, it feels like we in this adutainment the second part becomes more important than the first one.
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (19:23.386)
And the second part is
Daria Rudnik (19:24.802)
The edutainment, I mean the e in edutainment the entertainment is more important than education. And I'm curious to like to hear your perspective on that.
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (19:30.068)
okay. Hmm.
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (19:36.819)
Well I think I think quite honestly although f if I think about myself and I think about how do I learn having some kind of a like competition with myself or having some kind of a like gamification like winning certain things and progressing that kind of supports me. However, in terms of the entertainment altogether
I think the education and learning works when the person is motivated to learn and get educated. And if they are motivated well
Do you really need to entertain them? I think this is really a trying to heal the broken arm with the band aid, quite honestly. It's kind of you know, it it steers your focus away from what the real point is. So the question is why are you here?
And why do I have to entertain you to keep you here? On the other hand, yes, you you know, like when the organizational change happens, when you need to learn new things. when you need to you know, I remember what we have been doing back back in my corporate years where everybody all of a sudden start running around with
Daria Rudnik (20:52.965)
Yeah.
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (21:15.926)
agile, big data, you know, all that. It was like 10 years ago. And people were scratching their heads, like, what the heck is that? So, how can you really and you understand that this is the tendency, right? This is where the world is going. You kind of have to catch up whether you want it or not. But in that case, I'm okay with the gamification, quite honestly. I think this is a good part.
in terms of the entertainment altogether, I'm not sure this is the right answer to the right pro problem, quite honestly. But what what I think you need to be doing is really working with the motivation of people and really explaining what is the benefit there for them. Again, going back to the buy-in, right? Even asking them, okay, so here's here's the status quo. This is this is the reality.
You know, we're not going back. We're only going forward. We have to really follow the tendencies, right? How you will benefit if you learn that. So let them motivate themselves to be involved in the educational process. And I think this is much more sustainable approach here, rather than, hey, let me entertain you while you're learning.
Daria Rudnik (22:32.805)
Yeah.
And I love this shift in the focus. Like if your leadership development program is not working, if people don't want to join, it's not a question how can I entertain them better? How can I add more fun? What's the crazy activity that they would love? But more like, okay, how do I build a system that supports this program? How do I make sure that this program really gives something that they need? And how do I make sure that they know that they will get this from this program? So it's again comes back to systemic approach.
and managing stakeholders and making programs that really help them progress and grow in the organization. I love that.
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (23:17.044)
Thank you.
Daria Rudnik (23:18.073)
Well, thank you, Marie. It i it is an amazing conversation. I've learned so much. I have one final question for you, which I ask every guest, and that is if you were to change if you had a magic wand and could change one thing and solve one biggest problem of HR business leaders, HR leaders, what would that be?
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (23:25.01)
Okay.
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (23:43.266)
Ooh. Can I can I have three wishes?
Daria Rudnik (23:48.919)
One. I know we won a lot.
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (23:50.387)
I think that what would be really beneficial to all HR people and L&D people is really adopting the change agent mentality.
And this is together with this systemic approach that we have been talking about, because when you see the problem on a systemic level, you also need everybody on the systemic level to be involved in order for you to solve it. But in a lot of times that requires the change from bottom up or from top down, because you know like
Like we say in Russian, the fish rots from the head, right? So we have to start from the very top, and we have to ensure that all the necessary values and behaviors trickling down from the very top. But how do you get there? I think that's kind of the way of change management, but you need to advocate for that.
When I say you, I mean HR people or L&D people in particular. And this is where be having this change agent mindset is so important because this is how you go and convince others that they actually need the change, even though it is a going outside of the comfort zone, but the incentive should be really good.
Daria Rudnik (25:11.857)
Mm.
Daria Rudnik (25:35.363)
Yeah. Or the pressure is so hard that you just cannot ignore that.
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (25:39.408)
I'd rather you know, like I'd rather stick to the carrot than to the stick.
Daria Rudnik (25:41.657)
It can't
I mean people motivate like people motivations differ in having both. But again, I agree. Like it's a very strong point. So being I mean, I really want us to understand that the value we bring to the organization and that being these kind of change agents, being able to bring all the stakeholders together to create programs that will change behavior and let people grow and let organizations grow is a it's a huge opportunity and it's so interesting and it's kind of stepping out of canf our comfort zone as well.
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (25:48.287)
Yeah.
Daria Rudnik (26:14.917)
Well, thank you so much, Maria. How people can find you? How they can reach out?
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (26:21.872)
LinkedIn for sure. I think if you type in Maria Kolesnikoff you will find me there. It's very easy. Or you can go to my website, it is yourwayup.coach
Daria Rudnik (26:36.783)
And we have all the links to Maria's LinkedIn and website in the notes to this episode. And thank you so much, Maria, for your insights. Thanks for sharing your story. Thanks for talking about this systemic approach and curiosity as something that will help you learn business and help you create programs that people really need. And thank you for to to our listeners for staying with us till the end. If you like this episode, please give us five stars on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.
subscribe to our YouTube channel and stay tuned for the next episodes. Bye.
Maria Kolesnikoff, ICF PCC (27:08.135)
Thank you, bye.