Building HR Credibility with Boards & Executives with Rachel Sutherland at Respondology
Rachel Sutherland is SVP of People & Operations at Respondology, a 50-person venture-backed SaaS company, and she builds HR functions from the ground up at high-growth startups. In this episode of Built by People Leaders, Rachel Sutherland argues that the hardest part of scaling is forcing the founding executive team to stop making every decision and instead build a trusted middle layer that can act without them—her core lens on the startup-to-scaleup transition.
Rachel Sutherland reached people leadership through an unconventional route: an English literature degree, 10 years in publishing, entrepreneurship running brick-and-mortar businesses, then seven years building people functions in startup incubators. The friction she unpacks is specific to companies where founders can no longer sit in every room. Rachel Sutherland calls this "brain dumping" onto a new leadership layer—aligning them, then trusting them to make decisions that may not match how the executive would have done it.
Rachel Sutherland reached people leadership through an unconventional route: an English literature degree, 10 years in publishing, entrepreneurship running brick-and-mortar businesses, then seven years building people functions in startup incubators. The friction she unpacks is specific to companies where founders can no longer sit in every room. Rachel Sutherland calls this "brain dumping" onto a new leadership layer—aligning them, then trusting them to make decisions that may not match how the executive would have done it.
Challenges Addressed
- Delegating decision authority: Rachel Sutherland describes the angst executives feel when they push decisions to a new leadership layer and must accept choices that are business-aligned but not exactly their own.
- Executive hiring risk: Rachel Sutherland treats executive hires as the highest-stakes decisions in a scaleup, where a wrong hire becomes a six-month mistake that damages a small leadership team.
- Stage-specific ceilings: Rachel Sutherland explains how early employees who excel at "zero to one" often cannot carry the company through "one to two," forcing hard layering or exit conversations.
Actionable Takeaways
- Design incentives before headcount: Rachel Sutherland supports revenue by building compensation and KPI structures that motivate people to hit targets, and by keeping teams lean so capital funds growth instead of avoidable layoffs.
- Ask every colleague what they do: At Respondology, new hires spend 15 minutes with each person to learn the business. Rachel Sutherland uses this same curiosity to spot gaps and overlaps before making org design decisions.
- Be an advocate and a truth-teller: Rachel Sutherland builds board and executive trust by fighting for their compensation annually while also delivering hard feedback when leaders get in their own way—never acting as a "yes person."
Questions This Episode Answers
- How do I get founders to delegate decisions as we scale? Rachel Sutherland recommends aligning a trusted leadership layer with business objectives, then accepting decisions that differ from how the executive would have made them. The executive's job is to reinvent their own value rather than remain the single point of approval.
- How does HR actually support revenue in a venture-backed company? Rachel Sutherland focuses on incentive design, executive compensation, and lean org structures so people work on high-impact tasks, not busy work. This lets revenue fund growth instead of covering an inflated headcount.
- How do I know when an early employee has hit their ceiling? Rachel Sutherland says the ceiling is usually obvious; the hard part is deciding whether to layer someone with a new hire above them or move them on. She frames it as a stage mismatch, not a failure.
Links & Resources Mentioned:
- Connect with Rachel Sutherland on LinkedIn
Daria Rudnik (00:02.25)
Welcome to Built by People Leaders Podcast. I'm your host, Daria Rudnik, and this show is for HR and L&D leaders, those building real impact from within and shaping AI ready organizations. Each episode I sit down with people leaders to talk about how they build strong cultures and shape organizations around them. It's about HR being seen as a true business partner by leaders and by HR themselves. And today I have a very special guest. I'm very excited about this conversation today. Rachel
Sutherland is a people and operations leader who builds the HR function from the ground up at high-growth startups. She works at the intersection of people strategy and business execution, partnering directly with founders and boards on everything from org design and compensation to decisions that shape a company's next stage. Currently, senior VP of people and operations at respondres.
Senior VP of people and operations at respondology. She specializes in unglamorous high stakes work that keeps unscaling company from outgrowing itself. That is so interesting. I'm so excited to have this conversation. Welcome, Rachel.
Rachel Sutherland (01:13.791)
Awesome. I'm so exited to be here as well, Daria.
Daria Rudnik (01:17.336)
Well, let's start like with a question that I have for you. Like you're in the middle of this transition from startup to scale up. What stands out for you?
Rachel Sutherland (01:26.771)
Yeah, that's a really great question. So I think, you know, the biggest thing that stands out is that idea that the executives, the people who, the founders, the people who kind of were there from the very beginning, right? Who got to be in all the rooms and make all the decisions now have to kind of push that to a different layer of the company, right? So you don't you there's not enough time. There's not enough of you to make all of the decisions to be making all of the
choices to being all the meetings, you know, so you have to build this layer of people that you really trust underneath you. And you have to kind of, you know, for lack of a better word, brain dump a little bit onto them, right? So you have to they have to really be aligned with you, have to be really aligned with them, but then you have to trust them to make those decisions and move on ahead of you. you have to set up those right processes, right? So that, you know, there's not something that's very confusing
you know, on a different level where you're thinking, well, that isn't anywhere like a decision that I would make. but you also have to be okay with them making maybe decisions that you wouldn't exactly make, but they are in line absolutely with the business objectives and you know, there's nothing that's that's wrong with the the the you know decision, it's just not exactly how you would have done it. So there's a lot of there's a little bit of angst that goes along with that. There's a little bit of maybe quite a lot of that, right?
And feeling like a l a loss of control. So, as especially as the HR leader, my job then is to come alongside other executives and other people who are also going through the same thing. So I'm going through it with my own team, right? Like I'm pushing decisions down to people on my team. And then I have to also come along other aside other executives to do the same. And it's, you know, d depending on what it is, it can be really, really hard for each of these people to do that. So
that is the the thing that really stands out right now, where we are in the company.
Daria Rudnik (03:22.867)
Yeah, well I can feel it. Like there's gonna be personally challenging transition. Okay, I'm in control. How do I like I know I need to delegate, I know I need to do that, but it kinda feels awkward and scary.
Rachel Sutherland (03:36.168)
It is awkward and it's like this funny, you know, like what if they're better than me or something, right? There's also a little bit of like you're moving outside of your you have to kind of find the new thing that is the most valuable that you bring to the company and that you bring to the team, right? And so you're kind of constantly reinventing yourself or like working yourself out of a job, letting someone else do some of those things that maybe you were the expert in for such a long time and it you got a lot of identity out of being the expert and the person that everyone came to for that.
And now, you know, the you're not the person maybe or you know, not you don't have to be that person. And so there's a little bit of reinventing of yourself and and re-identifying yourself. And it feels like it happens over and over again in a startup like constantly. So yeah, I I feel like it's always if you're not feeling like that kind of weird sense of you know, out of comfort zone, then you're probably, you know, sticking too long in one phase of the company there a little bit. So you gotta gotta keep feeling that.
feeling.
Daria Rudnik (04:36.935)
Yeah. Well, tell us about a little bit about your journey. Like how did you come to that role?
Rachel Sutherland (04:45.077)
Yeah, absolutely. So I I did not have a traditional HR path. I did not go to school for HR or even business administration. I have an English literature degree, you know, which is amazing. I love all liberal arts. I think humanities degrees are fantastic. I love to hire people with humanities degrees. but yeah, so I I was in publishing for 10 years actually, did a lot of writing, and then I took some time off to spend with my children.
And then during that phase, I began to open up my own business. So I did a myriad of different businesses like brick and mortar, different kinds of businesses as I was raising my kids. And then got back into the corporate world about seven years ago, actually, kind of in a in a startup incub incubator and have just moved, moved up on through there and really enjoyed this type of work.
I think being an entrepreneur myself and you know starting a lot of things myself, like I really understand the business piece of it and understood like what kind of people would do well in those sorts of places. And so the HR area was just very, very easy for me to fit right into. so yeah, that's that's kind of my my journey. And now I I really love it. I think I you know, all of the operational pieces and the HR pieces fitting together.
in a startup especially, like it's just it's all the inner workings of the business and it's really, really exciting. So I think it's like the funnest job. I always tell people it's like the funnest job there is. I mean, not every piece of it is fun, of course. Like it's never fun to fire someone or there's there's tough things about it, but I just think it's fun. I I wake up every day and I I think it's just one of the most fun jobs there is. Yeah.
Daria Rudnik (06:29.065)
That's so good. And I love hearing this like stories of how people came to HR, like from sales, from business, entrepreneurship, literature, book publishing. Amazing. That is so cool. Well, I'm like I'm really curious. like what's your favorite part of HR? And what's the one that well, I hear the firing thing, but okay, what's the thing that you don't really enjoy doing?
Rachel Sutherland (06:39.541)
Totally. Yeah.
Rachel Sutherland (06:52.841)
Yeah, that's a good question. So I think like the strategic piece of HR is the most interesting and really like the organizational design, like understanding like where we are, where we need to be, really digging into like what's missing on the team, you know, again, special especially with this startup to scale up kind of situation, right? So like what's missing? Is that a skill that we can train with the current people we have? Is it a new person that we need to bring in to really up level the team? Like how does that work, right? And how can we do that in the most sustainable way? growing
gring growing the team sustainably so we're not just burning through money, right? Like we're venture backed. So we can't we you know we just we have a certain amount of money. I, you know, I don't want to do layoffs, things like that. So we have to grow sustainably. So I think that's the most exciting thing. It's really, really interesting to see where the business is going, what's gonna bring in the revenue, you know, how we support that really, really well and just grow to the best like overall business.
Yeah, so the things that I don't love about it, of course, yeah, the the the tough conversations that you have to have with people, you know, letting people go, of course. those are things that I don't love about it. I'm trying to think what else. so that's not the just really obvious. Of course no one no one likes that. I mean, if you do like that part of your job, you really should get out of HR at this point, right? Like, please don't enjoy firing people. you should always always feel bad about that.
Yeah, I think
Rachel Sutherland (08:25.289)
think there is like a there's pieces of like extreme detail work that I struggle with. Like I don't enjoy that. I can I have a real under like details really matter. I think the devil's always in the details, but I don't love to be doing constant detail work. you know, if I'm only in spreadsheets or something for multiple days.
I'm probably gonna be a little grumpy. so I I do have a lot of people on my team. That's kind of what I hired for immediately, were people who really understood how to be super, super detailed. And then I get to be the one to be like, you know what, that's fine. You know, we can we can play in the gray a little bit of that situation. but I know for sure that someone has really, really black and whited it out, whereas sometimes, you know, that's not as fun for me. So
Daria Rudnik (09:16.449)
Yeah, well I can I can relate. Like I was always into like people development pr culture strategy, but going into operations, contracts, documents, benefits, spreadsheets. my god. And I had an amazing, amazing person doing that. I mean I was so happy, like there were people who loved that and they were great at that.
Rachel Sutherland (09:31.413)
Totally.
Yeah, there's so much of it and like
Rachel Sutherland (09:40.946)
Exactly. Exactly. So I think that it's so valuable and like I really want all of that really minutiae data and everything that goes along with that. Like I think it's absolutely integral and imperative and I will absolutely do it if if I if I need to. But it's just not my favorite part. And I I love to have people on the team that really love that piece and then we can just compliment each other there.
Daria Rudnik (10:04.749)
Mm-hmm. You mentioned like you like thinking about how HR can support revenue. Can you give us an example? Like what what it's like? Like HR spends money. Salaries, benefits, training, lots of things. How do we generate revenue?
Rachel Sutherland (10:22.889)
Well generate revenue might be slightly excessive on that. But yes. But I think, you know, I think how you support revenue growth is like understanding compensation really well, right? Incentives really, really well. So like understanding how to motivate people, how to incentivize people to really hit their targets is going to get the company to the place that they they need to be, right? So incentives, motivation.
Daria Rudnik (10:25.555)
Okay. Support.
Rachel Sutherland (10:52.209)
And also just really setting up those exact, like, you know, what I really think it does have to do with hiring too, right? Like what specific level of person, what are we exactly looking for that's really gonna be able to hit their numbers in this you know, system that we have put together, right? And if if we're struggling with that, then maybe we need to adjust the system too. So like what system can we work in that makes that the best?
And I also just think, you know, really understanding, again, org design, right? Like so that you're not getting like inflated teams of of things that you know, like are are people really working on the most important things? That's a piece of our culture too, right? Like you gotta be working on impactful things. there's lots of busy work you can do all the time. Are you doing impactful things? You know what mean, right? Like everyone on every piece of the business. So if we're h over hiring for a team.
If we don't take the time to understand, like do where's the really the pain here that you need to bring on an additional person to do this extra work, then we're not we can definitely not support the business, right? So like having the that understanding and that business understanding, I think keeps the team lean. And that is where we support in the revenue piece, right? Like we can support on the op ex side so that we don't need as much revenue, maybe, or that our revenue can actually go to growing the business.
Daria Rudnik (12:01.996)
Mm-hmm.
Daria Rudnik (12:19.071)
Yeah, yeah, I love that. I love the kind of the system vision. Like you see the whole picture, you see the organization. It's not just you hiring this person for this role, maybe for this manager, but how this person will impact like a bigger picture. We're not just doing the training program because everybody does everyone does training programs, everyone develops leaders. But why? What is what exactly do we need to get from it? Is it engagement, again, retention? What is it we are trying to achieve?
Rachel Sutherland (12:46.547)
Yeah, exactly.
Daria Rudnik (12:47.693)
You know, Rachel, what I'm curious about. Like you mentioned your education. You like people in the humanities, but you're working with the tech environment and lots of tech people out there. How do you find the common language?
Rachel Sutherland (12:57.621)
For sure.
Rachel Sutherland (13:06.173)
Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, I think, you know, I certainly am not a, you know, excessively technical person on you know, the engineering side. but y I think that there's that curiosity and that learning, and I think that's what I part of what I mean about humanities majors is like people have critical thinking skills, right? And so
Like how do I learn enough about someone's job or enough about what they're doing that I at least understand, right? I'm never gonna understand all the frameworks you can talk and all these, you know, I I'm not gonna understand every single you know, technology that you might use, but I think I can understand the basis of your job, the you know, what matters to you, what makes you tick in that technical role enough to number one, build a relationship with you, and then number two you know, understand
the team dynamics and what might be, you know, if there's something that we need to step in and fix or how to make you do the best job that you can, not make you, but you know, provide the environment for you to do the best work that you can do.
Daria Rudnik (14:11.649)
I love this curiosity part and I I hear it a lot like through some of the episodes. Be curious about people you're working with. Same thing, be curious about the business. What how how do you generate how the company generates revenue? What are the products? What is it they needed? If you don't really understand that, well go and ask questions.
Rachel Sutherland (14:30.131)
Like I just think you know, I've said this a lot to like entry level people coming into our company too. Like, make, you know, like go and ask every single person what they do you know, for 15 minutes and like talk like because they're excited to tell you about it. Like they should love their job. Hopefully they all love their job. And they're really excited to tell you like the ex you know, ins and outs of technical onboarding a client or something like that. Right. And so you just get a little bit of a taste of what everyone is doing and how it works together.
I just think that's paramount for a people leader again, because you can see the gaps and you can also see some overlaps, or you can see like, you know what, this person would be great melding into this you know, position that we might have coming up, or, you know, being able to to assist in this area because I know them well enough. And it is nice because we only have fifty people right now. So I can sort of tell, or I can like work with a leader who who knows those pieces of it. I think it's a little harder when
But there's more people, of course.
Daria Rudnik (15:30.091)
Yeah. Yeah I mean. But but still you kind of get this feeling of what's happens. And if you have this relationship with the manager, they will tell you they will tell you what they think and what they feel.
Rachel Sutherland (15:34.57)
Yes.
Rachel Sutherland (15:38.695)
Exactly. Yeah.
Daria Rudnik (15:43.2)
And I like you said, you s you train entry level people, professionals to go and ask questions, but I also want to say that, and I'm sure you agree, if when you change industries, when you change companies, when you do like at the senior level, it's okay to ask questions as well. It's not just for entry level forks, it's for like any time you change an industry, change a company, same thing, go ask people about what they do and to understand.
Don't it sound better?
Rachel Sutherland (16:13.875)
Yeah, I think that's you're exactly right. Right. There's, you know, a lot of great books about kind of your first 90 days or something, especially as an executive or someone coming onto a company. And those are just so spot on in the like the understanding like you can ask a lot of stupid questions or you know, quote unquote, right? Because you're new. And so you have a pass for a long time to be able to ask a lot of questions to really come at it from a space of not knowing because you're new to the team. So
you know, ask a question that maybe s no one else thought of because you're seeing it from a different perspective, coming from a different place or you know, a different company. So yeah, absolutely. And like soaking that in and not necessarily of course not coming and being like, well, you know what, I think you should do it this way. More like, why why did you do it that way? Like I'm super curious, right? Like I I've not seen it done that way before, or I I'm wondering, you know, what made us go in this direction.
and then, you know, the rest of leaders have to articulate that as well because, you know, maybe they've forgotten it's been two years since we went we zigged instead of zagged and maybe we should look at the other direction again. So yeah, I totally agree with that. Absolutely.
Daria Rudnik (17:23.191)
And apart from curiosity and being curious and really interested in people, like how do you build trust with senior leaders, with the board? How do you you make them yeah, how do you make them trust you?
Rachel Sutherland (17:38.43)
Yeah, that's a really good question. I think you know, of course the relationship building. So, you know, getting to know people as people, I think, and you know, I use a lot of humor. Like I I like to enjoy I I just enjoy joking around with people, having a good time, right? Like understanding, you know, asking them personal questions. Those are just obvious things, right? but I think also you build trust because you bring a perspective and a point of view that they don't have.
and I think that that's really trust building. So, like if you bring you know, nuggets of things that they had not thought of, because you know, you're working with really smart people, right? And they're thinking, they're thinking you know, around lots of facets of a problem, but there's, you know, 35 facets right? And maybe they've got half of them and they're and they've thought through those. But like you have a unique perspective that you can bring to the table. And I think that always builds trust. And if you can bring that.
People want you in the room. right? Like because they're like, okay, well, Rachel's gonna see something, Daria's gonna see something that I didn't see. And I really want her to hear all of what's going on so that she can speak into something like that. and so if you can bring that perspective and you know, you have enough, you know, you have to it takes some confidence, a little bit of you know,
bravery, I guess sometimes, especially if you're new to a team or you know you're moving up or something, right? To actually share your point of view because ever not every time is it going to land and everyone's gonna be like, wow, what a great idea, right? Like it's not always gonna land. But you have to be able to you have to have some of that and you have to you know have the again understand the business enough so that you're coming with something that is really salient to a conversation, salient to a strategy.
that maybe a lot of people didn't think of and then people trust you I think.
Daria Rudnik (19:38.75)
Yeah. And you said like bravery, yeah, it does take some courage to say something. they're so smart. This they're so like smart people and I'm I don't understand those tech things. I don't understand business that well. And sometimes a question, sometimes a question can also be very helpful. It it also brings some perspective. So probably if you're shy for at the first to like say something, ask something instead and
That will help them get this another perspective and maybe come to another point of view as well.
Rachel Sutherland (20:14.759)
Yeah, I absolutely agree with that. And and, you know, yeah, asking a question, asking a question, you know, even not in a in a group setting, if if you feel like that's maybe your first start or something like that for sure, right? Like, you know, each each different person in like sort of different level, like you might work with your executive team all the time and hopefully you have a really good relationship there.
you know, a a board member or board observers, you know, they're they're an even higher level of sort of you know, they're not in your day to day, you don't know them super well on a personal level, and they can seem a little more difficult to to get to know because of that, right? Like they're just they're not you you don't work with them all the time every day. And so just takes a little bit more time to
Yeah, just just cultivate that a little bit and and you know, a little bit more time listening, a little bit less time you know, maybe bringing your ideas forward until you you've gotten to the point where you feel like you can.
Daria Rudnik (21:20.781)
Mm-hmm. And what do you think, what kind of decisions HR need to be involved in? like for example, if they don't they've not if they're not involved, okay, they should say, Okay, I can help you with that. What kind of decisions could that be?
Rachel Sutherland (21:39.081)
You mean across the entire company or the board in particular?
Daria Rudnik (21:41.389)
I mean with the board, like the board tells like y it's not just go hire me some people, but maybe some more strategic questions.
Rachel Sutherland (21:49.844)
Yeah, no, I think that in our case, especially like in terms of things like equity, in terms of things like, you know, like the the equity option pool or something like that, right? Like, I think they need to be really into that because that informs the kind of talent that you can bring onto your team. So that is something and that's something that every board and every executive cares a lot about. you know, what does that look like? so advising on that a hundred percent.
And then also like that motivation piece, right? So even in executive motivation. So like the executive compensation. you know, how do we make sure that we're setting KPIs so that everyone is happy with the outcomes, but also the executives are very motivated to hit those things at the end of the year or whatever right? so I think those kind of conversations are really imperative. And then just also
regular business strategy because again, you're gonna have a different perspective or you're coming from a different place. you also are talking with other people in the industry who might be HR leaders at other high growth companies and they might have ideas, right? So bringing you know no one else is talking to the other HR leaders at other high growth companies probably there might be talking to the other product leader. They might be talking to the other CEO because they're that's who they are, right? And so
Again, like we have ideas and and places that we're bringing those things in. but I definitely think when it has to do with motivations, understanding about scaling the team, what it looks like for what we need if we are gonna raise another series of funding, if we are going to get more equity out of a pool, those kind of things like I absolutely the people leader needs to be involved in.
Daria Rudnik (23:38.488)
I remember a story about it. One HR leader and and she was every year she was going to the CEO to talk about executive compensation. I mean, they are people, they also don't like talking and asking for money. I mean, they feel awkward about that, but they know there is someone there who is fighting for them. And that really builds their stress. So when like she needed to cut cast or like didn't let some people be her, they knew that.
She's there for them anyway, because every year she goes to the CEO to talk about their compensation schemes.
Rachel Sutherland (24:14.655)
Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, and that also goes on yeah, with the board, with with the executives, like all yeah, with the CEO, all those things. So, there is and I and I think, you know, it goes back to the building trust too. So like there's both things, right? Like you're gonna fight first people and then you're also gonna tell them the truth sometimes, right? Like if well, all the time you should tell them the truth, but like I mean more of a hard truth sometimes, right? When they're being a certain way or when they're maybe getting in their own way or
Daria Rudnik (24:34.753)
Mm-hmm.
Rachel Sutherland (24:44.063)
there's a there's a conflict arising. you should be typically the person that can say those things and should say those things to the team that you're working with a hundred percent, right? that you should be able to say, I don't think you're handling this very well. and and people do then trust you for that too, right? Like they know you're not just gonna be a yes man. So you you've got their back, but you also are gonna push them a little bit.
to be like the best leader they can be.
Daria Rudnik (25:18.903)
Well Rachel, you mentioned that well while going through this transition, growing the company, you've made some mistakes. Do you want to sh mind sharing some of them with us?
Rachel Sutherland (25:29.397)
yeah, sure. I mean, I think I've made a lot of mistakes, absolutely, right? I'm just trying to, you like I don't now I gotta think through which one I would bring forward first, right? you know, I think there's a lot of times where I guess, you know, you have an idea of what things like what's worked in the past.
Daria Rudnik (25:39.233)
We all do.
Rachel Sutherland (25:58.272)
And I think you can start there, but you don't necessarily you can't repeat that necessarily, right? Like it doesn't always work exactly like you would repeat it. so I think there's been times like that where I might have gone down a path that I initially was like, I you know, I I thought this would work this time and it and it really hasn't worked, and I've had to kind of backtrack on that. I think
I think one of the hardest things to do also is executive hire. And so there's been, you know, we've made mistakes on executive hiring. I think that's not necessarily things that we can I don't know. I don't know how to like completely avoid that, right? I think I think that's just really hard, right? And so trying to put in enough
checks and balances there, right? So that we're bringing in the right people. Because especially in a startup, like it really does make a a a huge difference who the leadership is. And if you make a mistake there, it's it's really a you know six month mistake or whatever. Like it's it's a long mistake. and so, you know, I think there's been there's been places there. and that's that's been tough. Those have been have have been tougher setbacks. but, you know, always have been learning experiences and
tried to you know, move forward with more I guess just more more ability to understand like who we should bring on the team. Yeah.
Daria Rudnik (27:31.115)
You know what I'm curious about? like when the company grows, when startup grows, and you have this kind of leadership team and at some point you do realize, well, some people can move be moved up and they can grow further, but some people they just need to stay on the same level and they need to you need to bring someone in. Yeah. How do you like how do you know which is which and how do you handle it?
Rachel Sutherland (27:49.129)
Be layered. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Rachel Sutherland (27:57.684)
Yeah, that's really, really tough. I actually think it's not that hard to know which is which. I think it's really it like it it does you see it pretty clearly when someone has hit a ceiling. That might not be a ceiling that they always will be at, but maybe it's because of their life, their current things, like whatever it is, right? But when they hit a ceiling, you might not want to admit it because you really you know.
love them on on the team and and whatnot, but like they they hit a ceiling, right? You you typically know. I I don't think it's that hard to know that actually. I think what's harder is yes, layering. So do we need to bring someone in over? Do we need to you know, will they be happy kind of moving on? Right. Like maybe their stage is from, you know, zero to one and now we're at one to two.
And that's not their thing, and and maybe I just need to have a conversation. Like maybe you need to go somewhere else and and do a zero to one again, right? Like we've had people definitely come to that conclusion themselves, like, you know, I'm this is I'm I'm now past the the stage that this is fun for me and I want to go do it you know, from start over again with another company. And I think that's a great realization to have. But depending on where you are in your career, you might not know that yet. That might be the first time that you've hit kind of a ceiling. So I I think that's when the harder
question comes is do we hire someone over someone, do we you know, maybe replace right with someone who can move it forward. And we've done both of those things. and I think, you know, we've made the right choices there. but it's a super hard conversation. It's a super hard thing, especially when someone's been around from from the beginning or from a certain section. But I do really
firmly believe that there is you know, people come and often they do have, like it's a very rare person that goes from zero to a hundred, right? Like there's a very rare person that can make it all the way through all stages of the company. And so it's really not a knock at all. Like that you've taken it from you know, X all the way to Y. We just can't, you know, we need to get someone from Y to Z. And that's a totally different person. They couldn't have started either. They couldn't have done the beginning part.
Rachel Sutherland (30:13.341)
And so it's a little it's a it's a lot of nuanced conversations, I think, and it's they're tough. But I actually think it's pretty it is pretty obvious to to see when people hit that spot. Yeah.
Daria Rudnik (30:30.227)
And I it is hard, but I I like to think about it that we're actually helping people by helping them understand like the current limitations. Like you said, it might change and to help them find place where they will thrive and they'll be happy and perform and everyone will be happy like a win win. But yeah, this first conversation might be might uncom uncomfortable through
Rachel Sutherland (30:55.399)
Yeah, and it's you know, it's again it's a change and it's also a like
I think that's the hardest part, right? Yeah. The making the change is the harder part, right? and you know, trying to kind of bring someone up through it. you always try that for sure. What right? But I just think also at the speed that a startup is at. So maybe at a small at at a larger company where there's just more time to kind of grow with a role, that would happen less.
But as a startup, like you're just like a year later your job is so different than it was a year before that it just happens more frequently, I think.
Daria Rudnik (31:36.021)
Mm-hmm. Well, Rachel, that was an amazing conversation. I have one final question for you. If you had a magic wand and could solve one professional challenge that the churn people leaders have, what would that be?
Rachel Sutherland (31:42.281)
Okay.
Rachel Sutherland (31:58.208)
that's a really good question.
Rachel Sutherland (32:06.205)
You know, I I think I would probably it's funny it's not the problem that I typically have, but I would make it, you know, I think HR being seen as more of a business partner, like just across the board, would be the thing that I would really change. I think that in progressive companies and, you know, forward thinking companies, that's how it is. And I when I talk to other colleagues and it's not that way, I just feel
I just think the entire business is suffering for that. And so I'd it really that would be the kind of magic wand that I would I would use. I think it's getting so much better, especially in tech, depending on where you're at, right? I think but I would love to change that perception and even just like, yeah, like the side jokes or whatever, right? Like people I I could take I I love to take I mean jokes are fine. I I'll take all day long. but
you know, it's it's not the same as kind of, you know, I don't know, HR from the office or whatever the show, right? It's it's not like that. And so to to change that perception would be really helpful.
Daria Rudnik (33:16.481)
Yeah, thanks. I I agree. And well hopefully this conversation will help people understand the value HR can bring and can really ask for the meaningful strategic support, not just hiring your friends someone.
Rachel Sutherland (33:30.961)
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
Daria Rudnik (33:33.229)
Well, thank you so much. And thank you for watching the episode. Thanks for being with us till the end. Before you go, if you are an HR people leader watching turnover climb and engagement and alignment sleep, and you know that team issues are there. This is the hard part is raising it with your leaders without sounding like it's you're not doing a good job. So I work with HR and people leaders and scale ups and fast-growing companies on exactly this. If that sounds familiar,
Reach out on dariarudnik.com and let's figure it out how to start. And if you like this episode, give us five stars on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, subscribe to our YouTube channel, and stay tuned for the next episode. Bye.
Welcome to Built by People Leaders Podcast. I'm your host, Daria Rudnik, and this show is for HR and L&D leaders, those building real impact from within and shaping AI ready organizations. Each episode I sit down with people leaders to talk about how they build strong cultures and shape organizations around them. It's about HR being seen as a true business partner by leaders and by HR themselves. And today I have a very special guest. I'm very excited about this conversation today. Rachel
Sutherland is a people and operations leader who builds the HR function from the ground up at high-growth startups. She works at the intersection of people strategy and business execution, partnering directly with founders and boards on everything from org design and compensation to decisions that shape a company's next stage. Currently, senior VP of people and operations at respondres.
Senior VP of people and operations at respondology. She specializes in unglamorous high stakes work that keeps unscaling company from outgrowing itself. That is so interesting. I'm so excited to have this conversation. Welcome, Rachel.
Rachel Sutherland (01:13.791)
Awesome. I'm so exited to be here as well, Daria.
Daria Rudnik (01:17.336)
Well, let's start like with a question that I have for you. Like you're in the middle of this transition from startup to scale up. What stands out for you?
Rachel Sutherland (01:26.771)
Yeah, that's a really great question. So I think, you know, the biggest thing that stands out is that idea that the executives, the people who, the founders, the people who kind of were there from the very beginning, right? Who got to be in all the rooms and make all the decisions now have to kind of push that to a different layer of the company, right? So you don't you there's not enough time. There's not enough of you to make all of the decisions to be making all of the
choices to being all the meetings, you know, so you have to build this layer of people that you really trust underneath you. And you have to kind of, you know, for lack of a better word, brain dump a little bit onto them, right? So you have to they have to really be aligned with you, have to be really aligned with them, but then you have to trust them to make those decisions and move on ahead of you. you have to set up those right processes, right? So that, you know, there's not something that's very confusing
you know, on a different level where you're thinking, well, that isn't anywhere like a decision that I would make. but you also have to be okay with them making maybe decisions that you wouldn't exactly make, but they are in line absolutely with the business objectives and you know, there's nothing that's that's wrong with the the the you know decision, it's just not exactly how you would have done it. So there's a lot of there's a little bit of angst that goes along with that. There's a little bit of maybe quite a lot of that, right?
And feeling like a l a loss of control. So, as especially as the HR leader, my job then is to come alongside other executives and other people who are also going through the same thing. So I'm going through it with my own team, right? Like I'm pushing decisions down to people on my team. And then I have to also come along other aside other executives to do the same. And it's, you know, d depending on what it is, it can be really, really hard for each of these people to do that. So
that is the the thing that really stands out right now, where we are in the company.
Daria Rudnik (03:22.867)
Yeah, well I can feel it. Like there's gonna be personally challenging transition. Okay, I'm in control. How do I like I know I need to delegate, I know I need to do that, but it kinda feels awkward and scary.
Rachel Sutherland (03:36.168)
It is awkward and it's like this funny, you know, like what if they're better than me or something, right? There's also a little bit of like you're moving outside of your you have to kind of find the new thing that is the most valuable that you bring to the company and that you bring to the team, right? And so you're kind of constantly reinventing yourself or like working yourself out of a job, letting someone else do some of those things that maybe you were the expert in for such a long time and it you got a lot of identity out of being the expert and the person that everyone came to for that.
And now, you know, the you're not the person maybe or you know, not you don't have to be that person. And so there's a little bit of reinventing of yourself and and re-identifying yourself. And it feels like it happens over and over again in a startup like constantly. So yeah, I I feel like it's always if you're not feeling like that kind of weird sense of you know, out of comfort zone, then you're probably, you know, sticking too long in one phase of the company there a little bit. So you gotta gotta keep feeling that.
feeling.
Daria Rudnik (04:36.935)
Yeah. Well, tell us about a little bit about your journey. Like how did you come to that role?
Rachel Sutherland (04:45.077)
Yeah, absolutely. So I I did not have a traditional HR path. I did not go to school for HR or even business administration. I have an English literature degree, you know, which is amazing. I love all liberal arts. I think humanities degrees are fantastic. I love to hire people with humanities degrees. but yeah, so I I was in publishing for 10 years actually, did a lot of writing, and then I took some time off to spend with my children.
And then during that phase, I began to open up my own business. So I did a myriad of different businesses like brick and mortar, different kinds of businesses as I was raising my kids. And then got back into the corporate world about seven years ago, actually, kind of in a in a startup incub incubator and have just moved, moved up on through there and really enjoyed this type of work.
I think being an entrepreneur myself and you know starting a lot of things myself, like I really understand the business piece of it and understood like what kind of people would do well in those sorts of places. And so the HR area was just very, very easy for me to fit right into. so yeah, that's that's kind of my my journey. And now I I really love it. I think I you know, all of the operational pieces and the HR pieces fitting together.
in a startup especially, like it's just it's all the inner workings of the business and it's really, really exciting. So I think it's like the funnest job. I always tell people it's like the funnest job there is. I mean, not every piece of it is fun, of course. Like it's never fun to fire someone or there's there's tough things about it, but I just think it's fun. I I wake up every day and I I think it's just one of the most fun jobs there is. Yeah.
Daria Rudnik (06:29.065)
That's so good. And I love hearing this like stories of how people came to HR, like from sales, from business, entrepreneurship, literature, book publishing. Amazing. That is so cool. Well, I'm like I'm really curious. like what's your favorite part of HR? And what's the one that well, I hear the firing thing, but okay, what's the thing that you don't really enjoy doing?
Rachel Sutherland (06:39.541)
Totally. Yeah.
Rachel Sutherland (06:52.841)
Yeah, that's a good question. So I think like the strategic piece of HR is the most interesting and really like the organizational design, like understanding like where we are, where we need to be, really digging into like what's missing on the team, you know, again, special especially with this startup to scale up kind of situation, right? So like what's missing? Is that a skill that we can train with the current people we have? Is it a new person that we need to bring in to really up level the team? Like how does that work, right? And how can we do that in the most sustainable way? growing
gring growing the team sustainably so we're not just burning through money, right? Like we're venture backed. So we can't we you know we just we have a certain amount of money. I, you know, I don't want to do layoffs, things like that. So we have to grow sustainably. So I think that's the most exciting thing. It's really, really interesting to see where the business is going, what's gonna bring in the revenue, you know, how we support that really, really well and just grow to the best like overall business.
Yeah, so the things that I don't love about it, of course, yeah, the the the tough conversations that you have to have with people, you know, letting people go, of course. those are things that I don't love about it. I'm trying to think what else. so that's not the just really obvious. Of course no one no one likes that. I mean, if you do like that part of your job, you really should get out of HR at this point, right? Like, please don't enjoy firing people. you should always always feel bad about that.
Yeah, I think
Rachel Sutherland (08:25.289)
think there is like a there's pieces of like extreme detail work that I struggle with. Like I don't enjoy that. I can I have a real under like details really matter. I think the devil's always in the details, but I don't love to be doing constant detail work. you know, if I'm only in spreadsheets or something for multiple days.
I'm probably gonna be a little grumpy. so I I do have a lot of people on my team. That's kind of what I hired for immediately, were people who really understood how to be super, super detailed. And then I get to be the one to be like, you know what, that's fine. You know, we can we can play in the gray a little bit of that situation. but I know for sure that someone has really, really black and whited it out, whereas sometimes, you know, that's not as fun for me. So
Daria Rudnik (09:16.449)
Yeah, well I can I can relate. Like I was always into like people development pr culture strategy, but going into operations, contracts, documents, benefits, spreadsheets. my god. And I had an amazing, amazing person doing that. I mean I was so happy, like there were people who loved that and they were great at that.
Rachel Sutherland (09:31.413)
Totally.
Yeah, there's so much of it and like
Rachel Sutherland (09:40.946)
Exactly. Exactly. So I think that it's so valuable and like I really want all of that really minutiae data and everything that goes along with that. Like I think it's absolutely integral and imperative and I will absolutely do it if if I if I need to. But it's just not my favorite part. And I I love to have people on the team that really love that piece and then we can just compliment each other there.
Daria Rudnik (10:04.749)
Mm-hmm. You mentioned like you like thinking about how HR can support revenue. Can you give us an example? Like what what it's like? Like HR spends money. Salaries, benefits, training, lots of things. How do we generate revenue?
Rachel Sutherland (10:22.889)
Well generate revenue might be slightly excessive on that. But yes. But I think, you know, I think how you support revenue growth is like understanding compensation really well, right? Incentives really, really well. So like understanding how to motivate people, how to incentivize people to really hit their targets is going to get the company to the place that they they need to be, right? So incentives, motivation.
Daria Rudnik (10:25.555)
Okay. Support.
Rachel Sutherland (10:52.209)
And also just really setting up those exact, like, you know, what I really think it does have to do with hiring too, right? Like what specific level of person, what are we exactly looking for that's really gonna be able to hit their numbers in this you know, system that we have put together, right? And if if we're struggling with that, then maybe we need to adjust the system too. So like what system can we work in that makes that the best?
And I also just think, you know, really understanding, again, org design, right? Like so that you're not getting like inflated teams of of things that you know, like are are people really working on the most important things? That's a piece of our culture too, right? Like you gotta be working on impactful things. there's lots of busy work you can do all the time. Are you doing impactful things? You know what mean, right? Like everyone on every piece of the business. So if we're h over hiring for a team.
If we don't take the time to understand, like do where's the really the pain here that you need to bring on an additional person to do this extra work, then we're not we can definitely not support the business, right? So like having the that understanding and that business understanding, I think keeps the team lean. And that is where we support in the revenue piece, right? Like we can support on the op ex side so that we don't need as much revenue, maybe, or that our revenue can actually go to growing the business.
Daria Rudnik (12:01.996)
Mm-hmm.
Daria Rudnik (12:19.071)
Yeah, yeah, I love that. I love the kind of the system vision. Like you see the whole picture, you see the organization. It's not just you hiring this person for this role, maybe for this manager, but how this person will impact like a bigger picture. We're not just doing the training program because everybody does everyone does training programs, everyone develops leaders. But why? What is what exactly do we need to get from it? Is it engagement, again, retention? What is it we are trying to achieve?
Rachel Sutherland (12:46.547)
Yeah, exactly.
Daria Rudnik (12:47.693)
You know, Rachel, what I'm curious about. Like you mentioned your education. You like people in the humanities, but you're working with the tech environment and lots of tech people out there. How do you find the common language?
Rachel Sutherland (12:57.621)
For sure.
Rachel Sutherland (13:06.173)
Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, I think, you know, I certainly am not a, you know, excessively technical person on you know, the engineering side. but y I think that there's that curiosity and that learning, and I think that's what I part of what I mean about humanities majors is like people have critical thinking skills, right? And so
Like how do I learn enough about someone's job or enough about what they're doing that I at least understand, right? I'm never gonna understand all the frameworks you can talk and all these, you know, I I'm not gonna understand every single you know, technology that you might use, but I think I can understand the basis of your job, the you know, what matters to you, what makes you tick in that technical role enough to number one, build a relationship with you, and then number two you know, understand
the team dynamics and what might be, you know, if there's something that we need to step in and fix or how to make you do the best job that you can, not make you, but you know, provide the environment for you to do the best work that you can do.
Daria Rudnik (14:11.649)
I love this curiosity part and I I hear it a lot like through some of the episodes. Be curious about people you're working with. Same thing, be curious about the business. What how how do you generate how the company generates revenue? What are the products? What is it they needed? If you don't really understand that, well go and ask questions.
Rachel Sutherland (14:30.131)
Like I just think you know, I've said this a lot to like entry level people coming into our company too. Like, make, you know, like go and ask every single person what they do you know, for 15 minutes and like talk like because they're excited to tell you about it. Like they should love their job. Hopefully they all love their job. And they're really excited to tell you like the ex you know, ins and outs of technical onboarding a client or something like that. Right. And so you just get a little bit of a taste of what everyone is doing and how it works together.
I just think that's paramount for a people leader again, because you can see the gaps and you can also see some overlaps, or you can see like, you know what, this person would be great melding into this you know, position that we might have coming up, or, you know, being able to to assist in this area because I know them well enough. And it is nice because we only have fifty people right now. So I can sort of tell, or I can like work with a leader who who knows those pieces of it. I think it's a little harder when
But there's more people, of course.
Daria Rudnik (15:30.091)
Yeah. Yeah I mean. But but still you kind of get this feeling of what's happens. And if you have this relationship with the manager, they will tell you they will tell you what they think and what they feel.
Rachel Sutherland (15:34.57)
Yes.
Rachel Sutherland (15:38.695)
Exactly. Yeah.
Daria Rudnik (15:43.2)
And I like you said, you s you train entry level people, professionals to go and ask questions, but I also want to say that, and I'm sure you agree, if when you change industries, when you change companies, when you do like at the senior level, it's okay to ask questions as well. It's not just for entry level forks, it's for like any time you change an industry, change a company, same thing, go ask people about what they do and to understand.
Don't it sound better?
Rachel Sutherland (16:13.875)
Yeah, I think that's you're exactly right. Right. There's, you know, a lot of great books about kind of your first 90 days or something, especially as an executive or someone coming onto a company. And those are just so spot on in the like the understanding like you can ask a lot of stupid questions or you know, quote unquote, right? Because you're new. And so you have a pass for a long time to be able to ask a lot of questions to really come at it from a space of not knowing because you're new to the team. So
you know, ask a question that maybe s no one else thought of because you're seeing it from a different perspective, coming from a different place or you know, a different company. So yeah, absolutely. And like soaking that in and not necessarily of course not coming and being like, well, you know what, I think you should do it this way. More like, why why did you do it that way? Like I'm super curious, right? Like I I've not seen it done that way before, or I I'm wondering, you know, what made us go in this direction.
and then, you know, the rest of leaders have to articulate that as well because, you know, maybe they've forgotten it's been two years since we went we zigged instead of zagged and maybe we should look at the other direction again. So yeah, I totally agree with that. Absolutely.
Daria Rudnik (17:23.191)
And apart from curiosity and being curious and really interested in people, like how do you build trust with senior leaders, with the board? How do you you make them yeah, how do you make them trust you?
Rachel Sutherland (17:38.43)
Yeah, that's a really good question. I think you know, of course the relationship building. So, you know, getting to know people as people, I think, and you know, I use a lot of humor. Like I I like to enjoy I I just enjoy joking around with people, having a good time, right? Like understanding, you know, asking them personal questions. Those are just obvious things, right? but I think also you build trust because you bring a perspective and a point of view that they don't have.
and I think that that's really trust building. So, like if you bring you know, nuggets of things that they had not thought of, because you know, you're working with really smart people, right? And they're thinking, they're thinking you know, around lots of facets of a problem, but there's, you know, 35 facets right? And maybe they've got half of them and they're and they've thought through those. But like you have a unique perspective that you can bring to the table. And I think that always builds trust. And if you can bring that.
People want you in the room. right? Like because they're like, okay, well, Rachel's gonna see something, Daria's gonna see something that I didn't see. And I really want her to hear all of what's going on so that she can speak into something like that. and so if you can bring that perspective and you know, you have enough, you know, you have to it takes some confidence, a little bit of you know,
bravery, I guess sometimes, especially if you're new to a team or you know you're moving up or something, right? To actually share your point of view because ever not every time is it going to land and everyone's gonna be like, wow, what a great idea, right? Like it's not always gonna land. But you have to be able to you have to have some of that and you have to you know have the again understand the business enough so that you're coming with something that is really salient to a conversation, salient to a strategy.
that maybe a lot of people didn't think of and then people trust you I think.
Daria Rudnik (19:38.75)
Yeah. And you said like bravery, yeah, it does take some courage to say something. they're so smart. This they're so like smart people and I'm I don't understand those tech things. I don't understand business that well. And sometimes a question, sometimes a question can also be very helpful. It it also brings some perspective. So probably if you're shy for at the first to like say something, ask something instead and
That will help them get this another perspective and maybe come to another point of view as well.
Rachel Sutherland (20:14.759)
Yeah, I absolutely agree with that. And and, you know, yeah, asking a question, asking a question, you know, even not in a in a group setting, if if you feel like that's maybe your first start or something like that for sure, right? Like, you know, each each different person in like sort of different level, like you might work with your executive team all the time and hopefully you have a really good relationship there.
you know, a a board member or board observers, you know, they're they're an even higher level of sort of you know, they're not in your day to day, you don't know them super well on a personal level, and they can seem a little more difficult to to get to know because of that, right? Like they're just they're not you you don't work with them all the time every day. And so just takes a little bit more time to
Yeah, just just cultivate that a little bit and and you know, a little bit more time listening, a little bit less time you know, maybe bringing your ideas forward until you you've gotten to the point where you feel like you can.
Daria Rudnik (21:20.781)
Mm-hmm. And what do you think, what kind of decisions HR need to be involved in? like for example, if they don't they've not if they're not involved, okay, they should say, Okay, I can help you with that. What kind of decisions could that be?
Rachel Sutherland (21:39.081)
You mean across the entire company or the board in particular?
Daria Rudnik (21:41.389)
I mean with the board, like the board tells like y it's not just go hire me some people, but maybe some more strategic questions.
Rachel Sutherland (21:49.844)
Yeah, no, I think that in our case, especially like in terms of things like equity, in terms of things like, you know, like the the equity option pool or something like that, right? Like, I think they need to be really into that because that informs the kind of talent that you can bring onto your team. So that is something and that's something that every board and every executive cares a lot about. you know, what does that look like? so advising on that a hundred percent.
And then also like that motivation piece, right? So even in executive motivation. So like the executive compensation. you know, how do we make sure that we're setting KPIs so that everyone is happy with the outcomes, but also the executives are very motivated to hit those things at the end of the year or whatever right? so I think those kind of conversations are really imperative. And then just also
regular business strategy because again, you're gonna have a different perspective or you're coming from a different place. you also are talking with other people in the industry who might be HR leaders at other high growth companies and they might have ideas, right? So bringing you know no one else is talking to the other HR leaders at other high growth companies probably there might be talking to the other product leader. They might be talking to the other CEO because they're that's who they are, right? And so
Again, like we have ideas and and places that we're bringing those things in. but I definitely think when it has to do with motivations, understanding about scaling the team, what it looks like for what we need if we are gonna raise another series of funding, if we are going to get more equity out of a pool, those kind of things like I absolutely the people leader needs to be involved in.
Daria Rudnik (23:38.488)
I remember a story about it. One HR leader and and she was every year she was going to the CEO to talk about executive compensation. I mean, they are people, they also don't like talking and asking for money. I mean, they feel awkward about that, but they know there is someone there who is fighting for them. And that really builds their stress. So when like she needed to cut cast or like didn't let some people be her, they knew that.
She's there for them anyway, because every year she goes to the CEO to talk about their compensation schemes.
Rachel Sutherland (24:14.655)
Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, and that also goes on yeah, with the board, with with the executives, like all yeah, with the CEO, all those things. So, there is and I and I think, you know, it goes back to the building trust too. So like there's both things, right? Like you're gonna fight first people and then you're also gonna tell them the truth sometimes, right? Like if well, all the time you should tell them the truth, but like I mean more of a hard truth sometimes, right? When they're being a certain way or when they're maybe getting in their own way or
Daria Rudnik (24:34.753)
Mm-hmm.
Rachel Sutherland (24:44.063)
there's a there's a conflict arising. you should be typically the person that can say those things and should say those things to the team that you're working with a hundred percent, right? that you should be able to say, I don't think you're handling this very well. and and people do then trust you for that too, right? Like they know you're not just gonna be a yes man. So you you've got their back, but you also are gonna push them a little bit.
to be like the best leader they can be.
Daria Rudnik (25:18.903)
Well Rachel, you mentioned that well while going through this transition, growing the company, you've made some mistakes. Do you want to sh mind sharing some of them with us?
Rachel Sutherland (25:29.397)
yeah, sure. I mean, I think I've made a lot of mistakes, absolutely, right? I'm just trying to, you like I don't now I gotta think through which one I would bring forward first, right? you know, I think there's a lot of times where I guess, you know, you have an idea of what things like what's worked in the past.
Daria Rudnik (25:39.233)
We all do.
Rachel Sutherland (25:58.272)
And I think you can start there, but you don't necessarily you can't repeat that necessarily, right? Like it doesn't always work exactly like you would repeat it. so I think there's been times like that where I might have gone down a path that I initially was like, I you know, I I thought this would work this time and it and it really hasn't worked, and I've had to kind of backtrack on that. I think
I think one of the hardest things to do also is executive hire. And so there's been, you know, we've made mistakes on executive hiring. I think that's not necessarily things that we can I don't know. I don't know how to like completely avoid that, right? I think I think that's just really hard, right? And so trying to put in enough
checks and balances there, right? So that we're bringing in the right people. Because especially in a startup, like it really does make a a a huge difference who the leadership is. And if you make a mistake there, it's it's really a you know six month mistake or whatever. Like it's it's a long mistake. and so, you know, I think there's been there's been places there. and that's that's been tough. Those have been have have been tougher setbacks. but, you know, always have been learning experiences and
tried to you know, move forward with more I guess just more more ability to understand like who we should bring on the team. Yeah.
Daria Rudnik (27:31.115)
You know what I'm curious about? like when the company grows, when startup grows, and you have this kind of leadership team and at some point you do realize, well, some people can move be moved up and they can grow further, but some people they just need to stay on the same level and they need to you need to bring someone in. Yeah. How do you like how do you know which is which and how do you handle it?
Rachel Sutherland (27:49.129)
Be layered. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Rachel Sutherland (27:57.684)
Yeah, that's really, really tough. I actually think it's not that hard to know which is which. I think it's really it like it it does you see it pretty clearly when someone has hit a ceiling. That might not be a ceiling that they always will be at, but maybe it's because of their life, their current things, like whatever it is, right? But when they hit a ceiling, you might not want to admit it because you really you know.
love them on on the team and and whatnot, but like they they hit a ceiling, right? You you typically know. I I don't think it's that hard to know that actually. I think what's harder is yes, layering. So do we need to bring someone in over? Do we need to you know, will they be happy kind of moving on? Right. Like maybe their stage is from, you know, zero to one and now we're at one to two.
And that's not their thing, and and maybe I just need to have a conversation. Like maybe you need to go somewhere else and and do a zero to one again, right? Like we've had people definitely come to that conclusion themselves, like, you know, I'm this is I'm I'm now past the the stage that this is fun for me and I want to go do it you know, from start over again with another company. And I think that's a great realization to have. But depending on where you are in your career, you might not know that yet. That might be the first time that you've hit kind of a ceiling. So I I think that's when the harder
question comes is do we hire someone over someone, do we you know, maybe replace right with someone who can move it forward. And we've done both of those things. and I think, you know, we've made the right choices there. but it's a super hard conversation. It's a super hard thing, especially when someone's been around from from the beginning or from a certain section. But I do really
firmly believe that there is you know, people come and often they do have, like it's a very rare person that goes from zero to a hundred, right? Like there's a very rare person that can make it all the way through all stages of the company. And so it's really not a knock at all. Like that you've taken it from you know, X all the way to Y. We just can't, you know, we need to get someone from Y to Z. And that's a totally different person. They couldn't have started either. They couldn't have done the beginning part.
Rachel Sutherland (30:13.341)
And so it's a little it's a it's a lot of nuanced conversations, I think, and it's they're tough. But I actually think it's pretty it is pretty obvious to to see when people hit that spot. Yeah.
Daria Rudnik (30:30.227)
And I it is hard, but I I like to think about it that we're actually helping people by helping them understand like the current limitations. Like you said, it might change and to help them find place where they will thrive and they'll be happy and perform and everyone will be happy like a win win. But yeah, this first conversation might be might uncom uncomfortable through
Rachel Sutherland (30:55.399)
Yeah, and it's you know, it's again it's a change and it's also a like
I think that's the hardest part, right? Yeah. The making the change is the harder part, right? and you know, trying to kind of bring someone up through it. you always try that for sure. What right? But I just think also at the speed that a startup is at. So maybe at a small at at a larger company where there's just more time to kind of grow with a role, that would happen less.
But as a startup, like you're just like a year later your job is so different than it was a year before that it just happens more frequently, I think.
Daria Rudnik (31:36.021)
Mm-hmm. Well, Rachel, that was an amazing conversation. I have one final question for you. If you had a magic wand and could solve one professional challenge that the churn people leaders have, what would that be?
Rachel Sutherland (31:42.281)
Okay.
Rachel Sutherland (31:58.208)
that's a really good question.
Rachel Sutherland (32:06.205)
You know, I I think I would probably it's funny it's not the problem that I typically have, but I would make it, you know, I think HR being seen as more of a business partner, like just across the board, would be the thing that I would really change. I think that in progressive companies and, you know, forward thinking companies, that's how it is. And I when I talk to other colleagues and it's not that way, I just feel
I just think the entire business is suffering for that. And so I'd it really that would be the kind of magic wand that I would I would use. I think it's getting so much better, especially in tech, depending on where you're at, right? I think but I would love to change that perception and even just like, yeah, like the side jokes or whatever, right? Like people I I could take I I love to take I mean jokes are fine. I I'll take all day long. but
you know, it's it's not the same as kind of, you know, I don't know, HR from the office or whatever the show, right? It's it's not like that. And so to to change that perception would be really helpful.
Daria Rudnik (33:16.481)
Yeah, thanks. I I agree. And well hopefully this conversation will help people understand the value HR can bring and can really ask for the meaningful strategic support, not just hiring your friends someone.
Rachel Sutherland (33:30.961)
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
Daria Rudnik (33:33.229)
Well, thank you so much. And thank you for watching the episode. Thanks for being with us till the end. Before you go, if you are an HR people leader watching turnover climb and engagement and alignment sleep, and you know that team issues are there. This is the hard part is raising it with your leaders without sounding like it's you're not doing a good job. So I work with HR and people leaders and scale ups and fast-growing companies on exactly this. If that sounds familiar,
Reach out on dariarudnik.com and let's figure it out how to start. And if you like this episode, give us five stars on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, subscribe to our YouTube channel, and stay tuned for the next episode. Bye.