Daria Rudnik (00:01.969)
Welcome to Built by People Leaders Podcast. I'm your host, Daria Rudnik, and this show is for HR and LD leaders, those building real impact from within and shaping AI radio organizations. We're here to help you build leaders and teams that perform when everything keeps changing. And today I have a very special guest, and I'm so excited about this conversation. Welcome, Katherine Hawkins-Jones, Chief People Officer at the UK-based motor insurance company and the founder of a People Experience Consultancy, PeopleScape. Welcome, Katherine

Katherine (00:35.47)
Hi Daria, thanks so much for having me.

Daria Rudnik (00:37.981)
Well it it's it's a great pleasure. And I have a question for you. I just recently saw a post on LinkedIn about the Somerset Bridge Group launched Women in Insurance Network. Tell us about it.

Katherine (00:51.628)
It's very exciting and it's in it's really, really early stages at the moment, but it's looking so promising in terms of the impact that it's gonna have. So it's a really organic group that's come about that does what it says on the tin, women in insurance. So we call it win for shorthand. And I was at an event, an internal event, meeting with other leaders and I was just talking about what would be useful to you when we kind of go back to our different sites.

And they were talking about the power of community and actually coming together is where you have those really rich conversations. But we did acknowledge that that doesn't always translate through to more junior people in the organization that don't have that same luxury. So essentially after a few conversations over a few coffees, we decided what wasn't there was something that we could create. So we got together with a few other people that we thought might be interested in it and fleshed out this idea.

That was essentially about bringing together a diverse group of people that wouldn't have an organic opportunity to meet usually and to spark conversations that could make a difference. So we meet twice a quarter. That's the intention. We've only had a couple of sessions so far, and essentially it's designed to be both practical and something that people can actually derive value from as an individual. So we have different topics so far. We've looked at imposter syndrome and we've looked at confidence.

And it's just been the conversation has just been so great and the feedback was really, really positive. So we've got grand plans for it, as I say, very early stages, but the participation was just fantastic. And I think it's got real scope to help individuals in their career. And it's so beautiful to see those that are kind of the emerging leaders versus more established leaders coming together and both parties learning from each other.

Daria Rudnik (02:42.349)
I mean that's a great initiative. Like supporting community. And it's it's not just internal, like it's it's external. It's not just the Somerset Bridge Group. It's it's right.

Katherine (02:51.584)
It yes, so absolutely. So we want to broaden out so that we get again that perspective and we don't live within our own bubbles. So there's intentions to bring in additional allies to come in and share their stories and to connect with other people that are working in that insurance sector. Because I think there are there's so many different facets of insurance.

And so that again just but brings with it diversity. So yeah, absolutely. And we're very, very much about open doors. So we're not looking to gatekeep our materials. So if women in any other particular sector are interested, more than happy to share some of the resources we built out.

Daria Rudnik (03:28.347)
Amazing. Amazing. Well, and tell us about yourself and your journey and how actually did it happen that you ended up as Chief People Office consultant building such great communities?

Katherine (03:39.905)
Yeah, absolutely. so I kind of stumbled into HR by accident, as I think so many people do. So I started in retail and hospitality after university and I was looking at business roles essentially running different sites and it became really clear that whilst I love the business side of things, it was the people that really got me excited, gave me a reason, gave me a purpose.

And so there was an opportunity for a second to go into learning and development. And so I took that and basically ran with it. So I was really lucky to have met sponsors throughout the time who invested in my development. So I did my CIPD qualifications, as so many people do. And I also built up kind of experience across lots of different areas of human resource practice. And I really fell in love with the whole change and transformation piece.

and really fell, I think, into that domain of helping people be successful. And that really links into the whole community piece because HR, you have the privilege of working with so many people with so many different needs that you really get you get good at plugging different people into to what is going to be the environment that makes them successful. So essentially over the last couple of decades, far longer than I care to remember, I have

Built up my specialization, I've really honed in on what I enjoy, and then I've used that hopefully to make a difference in the organizations that I've worked in. And those organizations have been really different. So currently I sit in the insurance in that sector. Prior to that, I've had experience of financial services, of automotive, of retail and hospitality, and of education. And again,

you really moving across those different sectors, understand that people are people. Our fundamental human needs are the same. And if you can tap into that power of community, connection and people really just wanting to do their best, then I think you can really unlock a le a level of performance that could be game changing in a business.

Daria Rudnik (05:44.943)
Yeah. I mean I love how you said it, like helping people be successful 'cause it th that's the essence of what we do in HR. Like we train people, we hire the right people.

Katherine (05:48.312)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Nobody wants to come to work to do a bad job. People want to come in and they want to feel useful and productive and part of something. And so absolutely I see it as my role is to create the right structures for people basically just to flourish.

Daria Rudnik (06:11.345)
I know you're like into communities and and and connection and helping build culture that through that community help organizations go through change. Well tell us a little bit about that. How this connection and community can help people go through change and transformation.

Katherine (06:13.688)
Mm-hmm.

Katherine (06:21.901)
Yeah.

Katherine (06:28.888)
Definitely. So I think increasingly I've been interested in community and the power of that. Because as I'm sure many other people have observed, we're becoming increasingly disconnected, particularly since COVID. We work from home, we're locked in small home offices in some scenarios. And also technology is replacing authentic, like human relationships. So I think for me, I have definitely seen people that have

been negatively impacted by that lack of community. And I mean that on a a broader sense of we've seen a reduction of social and educational establishments, different community groups that may have existed through either religion or through location and through different systems there. So the workplace has become a really important area for people to come together, both physically and you know, in so many other senses as well.

So in the workplace, I don't think we just come there to do a transaction, to produce an output and to leave. I think it is about coming in and helping ourselves and others be better. So from that community point of view, I think it's about recognizing that in your workplace, you may have people with children, people without, people starting their career, people finishing their career, people that love cats, love dogs, whatever it may be, but there should be a place for everyone to be able to celebrate the things that they love.

So whether it's something as simple as setting up a running group for people in the business, setting up a parents at work group, somewhere where commonality can actually be used as a lever of support, I think as long as you've got a diverse organization, you should be able to celebrate that diversity, but also celebrate finding your community within that. So I actively try to create opportunities for people to connect.

to share information, to find out more about communities that they might not actually be a part of consciously, but would benefit from being part of that. And the knock-on effect, Daria, into the business is I think when you then go through a period of uncertainty. So typically, you know, we're always in a state of change in the commercial environment it feels at the moment, that can be really destabilizing for people.

Katherine (08:52.3)
So actually having a group of individuals that you've connected with on a different level, that you've shared a passion with, that you have shared a different experience with, means that you have people to confidently ask questions of, share your fears with, galvanize support from that from that group. I think that is where then community comes into play in a commercial sense when it's driven from a social or an identity point of view.

Daria Rudnik (09:22.175)
I love how you said that, that workplace basically we all go to work. I mean, virtually, physically. So that's the place where we are in some sort of connected and use that space to create even like deeper connections between people. It's it's a social socially responsible act, helping people feel better when in this disconnected world.

Katherine (09:26.062)
Mm.

Katherine (09:33.165)
Yeah.

Katherine (09:45.069)
Yeah. Absolutely. And I think, you know, you often hear water cooler moments. They can be the place that sparks new relationships, that sparks innovation. They're really, really important. I work in the insurance sector and we talk about collisions in terms of those social collisions that we each have. And I think as well, being social creatures that we are, it's really important that when we're seeing someone every day.

We can notice changes in them, both positive and negative. And so again, the workplace, when you create those opportunities for people looking out for each other, you can see if someone starts to not be okay and hopefully be in a position to say Darry, not yourself. How are you? You've been a bit quiet, you've been a bit louder than usual, you've been more stressed. And actually we have that immediate access to make a real and meaningful difference to people.

So I I truly believe that the workplace is one of the last bastions really for people to come together and to to genuinely support each other and to be that positive tribe.

Daria Rudnik (10:49.341)
Curious about re I mean, obviously remote work. And I know lots of people, I am myself am huge fan of remote work. I know like connections are super valuable, but the having this freedom of working like from whatever I want, whenever I want, not being like not without the need to commute. How do you see that in the I mean ideal scenario?

Katherine (10:55.138)
Yeah.

Katherine (11:06.584)
Yeah.

Katherine (11:10.89)
Absolutely. I think again the workplace has changed dramatically and it has to cater for so many different needs. For some individuals, staying at home is the best thing for them. And I think that is absolutely valid. We're seeing an increase in remote workers and boundary list offices. And of course, so many organizations are choosing not to tether themselves to a postcode or to a set location. And clearly there's commercial benefits to that. I think the reality is that we have got the technology.

Daria Rudnik (11:34.147)
Mm.

Katherine (11:38.829)
To build connections and to build communities without requiring that physical in-person presence. So again, so many of the communities that I've built up, for example, the Women in Insurance Network that we referenced at the start, that was a hybrid call that united Bristol offices with Newcastle offices with home workers, and people were able to flex to what was their circumstance.

So I think flexibility and technology means that even though we have remote relationships, they can still be meaningful. They can still have that spark of humanity. You can probably guess what half of my hobbies are from looking at what's behind me, for example. Avid Lego enthusiast, avid diver, love animals. so actually we get to see a side of people that we don't always see when they just come into the office and we're presenting our office self.

Daria Rudnik (12:16.817)
Yeah.

Katherine (12:31.064)
So I think hybrid work in is a great way of being inclusive to more communities again, those that might have parental commitments, caring commitments, travel issues, health issues. Remote and boundaryless workers are a really important community that we should involve in the workplace experience, even if that doesn't mean the physical workplace.

Daria Rudnik (12:52.071)
Yeah. Well you mentioned the community kind of this broader than your organization. Do you mind sharing some of the like internal communities, how you build them? Is there any like a playbook a a playbook of how to build a community?

Katherine (13:01.336)
The instant

Katherine (13:05.6)
Yeah, so some of them happen organically, but quite often you can find that they become quite disorganized and also they're not just effectively structured to be able to make use of again great resources that are out there. So what we typically say is if you see a gap in the workplace that you want to fill, speak to one of our bridge builders. So bridge builders are essentially connectors within the business.

And they're able to talk to enthusiasts or advocates that are looking to germinate something. And they're able to say, right, this is how we can use our internal Microsoft Teams, Slack, whatever's your kind of chosen provider. This is how you can start to build things up to attract people, tell them what you do, keep that community alive, use it for really basic things like planning events and communication, et cetera.

So we've kind of got like a mini playbook that says, if you've got an idea, this is how you can bring it to life. And it is about signposting resources that are available to people, best practice that's available to them, and really just saying if you care about it, other people will see how much you care about it and may choose to participate. But make sure that they know it's about the purpose and the intent and not about the numbers. It's not a competition to see which community has the biggest or the loudest voice.

Any anything more than one person is a community. I truly believe that. So by signposting that you can help build someone's skill set as well to make them more comfortable with creating communication, speaking in front of groups, all of that sort of thing, networking and generating some buzz around their community. So you can learn and grow at the same time as finding your tribe, as it were. And our playbook is quite simple, but it's a great reminder for those that have never done something like that before.

Daria Rudnik (14:54.439)
Really love to go in the details. Like for those listening to us, I know like lots of lots of HR people, lots of organizations, they they are in the communities, they want to build the communities, but many, like so many of the communities just die out. So if we just go like in into details of how you do that, from what I hear, those people like who initiated the communities, they actually run the community. So it's not an HR or specific kind of person. Who are the bridge builders?

Katherine (15:08.056)
Mm-hmm.

Katherine (15:18.742)
Yes.

That's right.

So the bridge builders are essentially people that we have educated and well, I say educated. First of all, we've said who wants to help out with this initiative? So it is a self-selective environment. And I think that's really important because the minute you start to press gang anyone into this, then it loses that organic nature that is really for me the catalyst of sustaining something. If you are forcing someone to do something, it is never going to be a pleasurable experience.

So, first of all, you find natural advocates in the business who have a skill set that potentially lends themselves to it. And then as I say, the education comes in. These are the things, the tools that we have at our disposal. Let's get together regularly and actually implement them and iterate as we go. The workplace changes all the time, tools, resources, technology changes all the time. Again, it's about keeping up to date with that so that people are actually able to utilize it to best effect. But I think

We live in a instant gratification society, don't we, Daria? And I think a lot of initiatives lose lose pace because people aren't tenacious with it. They're not committed to it. And actually just revisiting some core values like patience, investment, diligence, consistency, those are the things that could keep communities alive.

Katherine (16:50.122)
And again, if you are serving the right community for the right reasons, it will become self-sustaining. A lot of communities that I see fail are because they're set up for the wrong reasons and they're servicing the wrong people. They're trying to please everybody and in doing so they please nobody. So it's better to have almost fragmented communities that are united under that one shared experience of the organization than having one community that doesn't actually cater for anyone effectively.

So there's a couple of things there, I hope, Daria, in terms of saying, first of all, like do the research in terms of what do you need, what do you want, and how can you create that community. But then don't think it'll be an overnight success. It's gonna require patience and investment and the investment will pay off, absolutely.

Daria Rudnik (17:32.731)
Yeah.

Daria Rudnik (17:41.084)
What do you think, Katherine? Like, for example, like an organization, they want to have a community for new new managers. And like it's it's understandable. They need some place to connect. They might have actually say that we want a place to connect. They they say we want to share our stories, we want to share our success and failures, but there's no

Katherine (17:48.418)
Mm.

Katherine (17:56.994)
Mm-hmm.

Daria Rudnik (18:03.771)
clear kind of community leader or like drive. People want to be invited into the community. People want to be entertained in this community.

What would you recommend doing in that scenario?

Katherine (18:19.992)
So that's where I think the HR teams and people teams can make an impact. I think we can showcase the art of the possible and really show the impact that our community, if you again invest in it, construct it appropriately, create it for the right reasons, the impact it can have. And I have seen it act as that virtuous cycle of once there are a few wins and there are a few active communities and people are talking about it and sharing their experiences.

It often snowballs in a positive way. And so I think it's really important to do that, to show what is possible, because if you don't know, you don't know. The other thing as well is to act with intent. It's really easy to get sidetracked by the day to day. You have to be intentional about setting aside time and setting aside physical and mental space to conduct that. So we have addition a different initiative that we've just started in the organization.

which is called deal days, drop everything and learn. And now if we just launch this as an initiative as a community, it would never happen. With the greatest intent, we'd all say we'd do it and then the meeting invite happens and, you know, something will distract you from your day. But what we've done is we've been intentional. We've put that time in people's diaries. We've said this is so important to us. We are going to schedule it. As well as that, we are not expecting people to do it alone. So we've got lots of communication going out

Daria Rudnik (19:26.684)
Yeah.

Katherine (19:48.089)
Frequent communication across different channels in different voices, reaching different audiences that provide some guidance as to this is how you can use your DLD, this is how I'm going to use mine, etc. And then we are cr creating collision points, time where people can come together to share those resources. So certainly intention, creating space and setting aside time are three really important elements that will make a community successful.

Daria Rudnik (20:17.029)
Yeah, yeah. Well I it takes time and effort and persistence. It will not fly on its own on its own.

Katherine (20:21.098)
Yeah. And the reality. No. But it's amazing how many people forget that and they just they have an idea, but there's no execution. And that's where the discipline needs to come in. And where I think HR and people teams can be a real catalyst for that. We understand what motivates people, what engages people, and also on the flip side, what demotivates people and what disengages people. So whenever you create a community, you try to reduce those points of friction as much as possible.

Don't just say, Yeah, great idea. Get together when you can. Set that time. Don't just go into it expecting a great conversation to happen. Set an agenda. Send some thinking points out ahead of that meeting. That's how you're going to get the best of the actual contact time together.

Daria Rudnik (20:55.303)
Mm-hmm.

Daria Rudnik (21:06.739)
I think there's a kind of paradox. Like we we we're connected with some people and it feels natural and we don't like make any efforts of having a connection with one person, like p two people. But when it comes to community, we kinda feel that should be the same. We feel well together. It'll grow like organically. No, it won't. You need to be like structured, deliberate, like put some effort into that. Yeah.

Katherine (21:16.992)
Yes.

Katherine (21:21.367)
Yeah.

Katherine (21:24.992)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But that's where it I think as well poses a really interesting point. At which point does a community become ineffective? How big is too big? When does the quality of the conversation start to become eroded? Because naturally we've all only got a fixed amount of time. And I don't know about you, but there's only so many things I can hold in my mind at once. And

Actually, it's about the depth and the quality of the community, not about the quantity. So certainly, for example, with the Win initiative that we're looking at, fewer members at the moment is leading to better con conversations. And we're very mindful of kind of monitoring the success of those sessions because once we get too big for people to actively participate, when we start to compromise the safety of that space and potentially have people in that room that people don't want to be vulnerable in front of.

That's when the community is at risk of degrading. So again, community and managing access to it and the size of it is a really careful balance and one that I can only say every community's different and it requires monitoring, maintenance and investment in.

Daria Rudnik (22:39.613)
Yeah, yeah, I love it. 'Cause I mean kinda feels like the big the bigger the better, but it's not like the deeper the conversations are that's that's the real value.

Katherine (22:44.685)
Yeah.

And that's where yeah, and that's where I think the identity of the organisation that allows communities to develop is the unifying factor. It's our shared identity of being together at Somerset Bridge Group, for example, is our through line, but all the communities are the different offshoots because in reality we're not one community, we're one team made up of multiple communities.

Daria Rudnik (23:12.625)
Nice. I know you have a story to share about how you build a community of unrepresented group and what happened.

Katherine (23:19.542)
Yeah. I think I was definitely in an organization before where I felt quite isolated I think as a younger member of the team and there just weren't opportunities for me to get involved in in different projects. I I never felt that I had access to getting getting into good conversations, good projects or whatever it was. And

I could see that other people maybe felt like that across the business, but wasn't quite brave enough to actually say to someone, I feel like this, do you? And then it was only in an accidental conversation when I was walking to a train with someone that they asked me how things were going and it'd been a particularly hard day. So I think I just shared, I was really frustrated when I wasn't invited to be part of this particular working group.

And they said, me too. That was so annoying, wasn't it? my God, I had so much to give to that. And so in this kind of shared moment of frustration, we recognized that if if we felt like this, there were absolutely other people that would feel the same. So, you know, we we found our brave our brave bone. And when we were next in the in the office, we essentially went to quite a significant figure in the business and said, Look, we've got this idea or we've got this frustration.

But we've got a solution for it, an idea for it. So we sent out a very open and a very honest communication to the business saying we recognize there's probably a gap in younger, junior, or newer people to the business being able to get involved in things. If this feels like you, reach out. And so, first of all, we we tried to understand how many people may potentially be affected by this issue. And then when we saw that it was at a size that we could do something about it.

We essentially created a space for people to come together. And at this point we didn't have a full solution. But with everyone in the room, we started to brainstorm. And it was quite a manic conversation and and lots of ideas and lots of voices. But again, we asked people that were prepared to carry this forward to help build the solution. And off the back of that, we essentially built up a me please group. And this me please group was designed for people that

Katherine (25:41.187)
didn't have communities within the organization or didn't have access to certain projects, would be able to say, me please, for initiatives that were coming up. And then we worked in conjunction with the senior leadership team, whereby whenever there was a project on the horizon, we made sure that there was a period of time where it was communicated internally to say, this opportunity will be coming up in August. Please put your hand up if you'd like to get involved. And it was such a simple thing, but it had never happened before.

So it essentially escalated, but it became a place where people could either say, Me please for help or me please to get involved, and then that became this this great group that drove innovation and inclusion. So it was quite a broad community, but one that impacted, as I say, new starters, early careers and people that may have recently kind of moved offices or jobs and didn't have that community.

Daria Rudnik (26:36.899)
I love that. It's so amazing.

Katherine (26:39.042)
Conversation, yeah, conversation at the train, on the way to the train and it spiraled into something great.

Daria Rudnik (26:45.935)
It's it's it's very brave actually to to go to somewhere in I mean, being a young professional, going to somewhere higher up in the hierarchy and tell them, Hey, I wanna be involved. Who are you?

Katherine (26:56.81)
Yeah. And I yeah. And I think that's where so many communities come from is someone being brave. Someone saying, I'm I'm looking to be part of something and the minute then that one brave person stands up, it attracts more people with that that similar thought process. So I see that so often. One community can spark another community, but with a really different ethos or intention.

Daria Rudnik (27:24.689)
Yeah, yeah. Set the set example. Be brave yourself. Be the first one. And again, it's like whether it's HR or anyone else in the company, if something is happening, you wanna be part of it, just say, Let me in. I wanna be part of it. It might happen, they will let you in, might not, but if you don't say, you will not be part of it.

Katherine (27:28.801)
Yeah.

Katherine (27:33.997)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's where people teams can be really instrumental because in reality, for an individual to make that first step, it can be really daunting. And again, d they don't always have the privilege of oversight across the business to be able to make it happen.

Whereas people teams get that beautiful aerial view of being able to, through the different teams they work with, through the different departments, to be able to spot that person in Newcastle with that person in Bristol, that person in sales, with that person in distribution. And that's where I think people teams are able to use their oversight in a really positive manner to create those connections and to create impact.

Daria Rudnik (28:23.641)
Yeah. And again, people can reach out to like people professionals because it's easier than to go up to the top and then can be connected to yeah and

Katherine (28:26.733)
Yeah.

Katherine (28:30.58)
Absolutely.

And I think it's the nature that quite often people teams have very intimate conversations with people and we see people at their best, but also at their worst when they're really vulnerable or isolated. And so again, when we see that, we should be able to convert that that intimacy of the relationship that we have with people into something good and being a driving force for change. So recognizing that someone is feeling lonely, feeling disconnected, feeling excluded from something.

we're in a real place to be able to make a difference and to help overcome some of those barriers that people have to find in a community.

Daria Rudnik (29:09.731)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, Katherine, it was an amazing conversation. It was kind of like really a playbook of how to build a community, what to do, how to start it, how to drive it, what it takes to build communities within organizations and outside of organization as well. And I know you have something to offer for the audience, a diagnostic tool.

Katherine (29:23.976)
yeah.

Katherine (29:28.982)
Yeah, absolutely. sometimes you just don't know where to start, do you? And you think, I know something one needs to change, but I don't know what it is. For those that are interested in kind of understanding the health check of their organization, do just reach out and I've got a great tool that's definitely simple to use, quick to use, and it will help you look at different facets across your organization and really identify where your opportunity is to make a difference.

it can be used in any sector, it can be used at any size or organization, or as you touched on Daria, also outside of work and in your own life, if you feel that you've got something missing, then it could be a great tool to give you some ideas and some practical steps to help you find or build that community that you're looking for.

Daria Rudnik (30:13.043)
Cool. How people can find you and reach out to you and to learn more?

Katherine (30:17.108)
LinkedIn of course. So Katherine Hawkins Jones, you will find me there. but also you can go to the PeopleScape website and you're able to contact me directly at Hello At. otherwise you can try carrier pigeons and smoke signals. I don't know if I'll get those messages as quickly, but yes, LinkedIn or obviously through yourself, more than happy to have any introductions or referrals.

Daria Rudnik (30:39.973)
Amazing. We have all the links in the notes to this episode. So reach out to Katherine, connect with her on LinkedIn, get the tool and and run this diagnostic for your organization. Well, thank you so much, Katherine. It was an amazing conversation. And for those who are listening, if you enjoyed this episode, please give us five stars on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Subscribe to our YouTube channel and stay tuned for the next episodes. Bye.

Katherine (31:03.662)
Thanks, Daria.