(00:04-00:10) Intro
Candid Conversations, Unfiltered Opinions, and Humor with Avag Beck's podcast.

(00:11-00:40) Idongesit Obeya
Hello, everybody. Welcome to an episode today. I have the pleasure of having Daria Rudnick with us. Daria is a team architect and leadership coach. She's also an author. So you're wondering, what is a team architect? When you talk about architecture, we're talking about buildings and things like that. Yes. Today, we're going to talk about people architecture, right? So the team dynamic.

(00:40-01:08) Idongesit Obeya
and also leadership coaching. Yes, we've talked about leadership a lot on this channel. Why do leaders need coach? Why not? Leaders more than anything needs coaching. So today, Daria and I will be discussing that and I'll be asking some questions and she's already shown she can answer those questions. So pull up a seat and let's talk. Hi Daria, welcome. Well, how did you say that? It's great being here. I'm super excited to have this conversation.

(01:08-01:27) Idongesit Obeya
Thank you, thank you, Misha. I'm very excited to have this conversation. So let's start with team architecture. Why are we applying architecture to team building? I love the question. The thing is, like, we never learn how to work in teams. Like, we kind of assume that teamwork just happens.

(01:27-01:54) Daria Rudnik
Put people together, and here we go, there's a team. And you have one manager, and you have some people reporting to this manager, there's a team. Now, we're overusing the term team. Because, to be honest, we never learn how to work on teams. Family is not a team. School is not a team. University is not a team. And the first time people actually join a team is when they join the workforce. And then people tell them, be a team player, build a team.

(01:54-02:22) Daria Rudnik
When leaders become leaders for the first time, they say, okay, you need to build a great team. How do you do that? When you go to the leadership course, you learn how to delegate, how to set goals, how to give feedback, how to do your one-to-ones. What about teamwork? What about team dynamics? How do you build this collaboration between different team members, probably living in the different time zones and different cultures and different offices? And even if they are in the same space,

(02:22-02:45) Idongesit Obeya
How do you make this group of people a real team? So that's what I call team architecture. I'm a being a tech architect. I help leaders design teams that work well together. So many questions on that, but let's talk about the family unit. So most people feel like their family unit is their first team. And if I know family, like anybody knows family,

(02:45-03:06) Idongesit Obeya
The kind of things you say, the way you treat your family, you would not do that in a workspace and get away with it. So how do we really let people understand that, yes, your family is your family, although you had to maybe have tours within that family that is not actually considered a team in a sense of cooperating?

(03:06-03:33) Daria Rudnik
Yeah, I love that question. Kind of, it brings the essence of what a team is. A team is defined by a shared purpose. Family has no purpose. There's no goal. We love each other just because we are there together, no matter what happens, no matter whether we're high performer or low performer, it doesn't matter. You cannot fire anyone from your team. We're always together, no matter what. I mean, it feels not like that.

(03:33-04:03) Daria Rudnik
We have family, we have friends, we have different kind of social connections. And team is defined by shared purpose. We're here together to create something amazing. And this something amazing is what defines what are the people need to be on this team? How do we collaborate? How we work together? How we communicate? How we are interconnected? And that's the huge difference between teams, friendships, street gangs, anything, just people hanging out together.

(04:03-04:28) Idongesit Obeya
Yeah. So let's talk about picking the right talent. So what happens in a dynamic where a manager is keeping people based on personal relationship of being playing favorites and it's affecting the team dynamic. However, the people who are actually producers of that team get punished for speaking up. So what do you make of that team dynamic? And is that effective?

(04:28-04:49) Daria Rudnik
I think you have the answer in your question. Sorry, the manager. Well, the main question is, like, what are you trying to achieve? What are you trying to achieve? I know, like, I've been in environments where it's a family business and you kind of need to have certain people on board because, again, it's part of the family. It's very complicated. It's very hard to run a family business. Yeah.

(04:49-05:08) Daria Rudnik
because of this interconnections between family and business. In some cases, you are in a situation like that. Well, the thing is, what is that you want to achieve? If you really want to create something valuable, valuable, I mean, it's for people who will use it. It's businesses that are

(05:08-05:31) Daria Rudnik
uh creating something valuable they also contributing to the society they're helping the community that you have workplaces you have people working together who feel well because they're creating something meaningful if you are into this kind of business then obviously like no playing favorites it's just you do need to have strong relationships with the team but this relationship are based on your team contributions and engagement and

(05:31-05:58) Idongesit Obeya
motivation how you work together and not based of I like you and I don't like but if you are in a business run you just don't need to have it you don't want to have it I mean okay it's your choice I just don't want to be part of that so what do you say to people who find themselves in that dynamic and they do bring a lot to the table they have a lot to offer again I'm asking these questions because I've seen a lot of like casualty you know corporate casualty where

(05:58-06:22) Idongesit Obeya
people feel like, okay, maybe I'll make the difference. Okay, maybe speaking up will make the difference. And unfortunately, they end up, you know, on the wrong side of the act. So when somebody actually initially sees this dynamic in a workplace, what do you advise somebody to do? Because there's a lot of trauma attached to that experience. And I would like for you to please speak on that.

(06:22-06:45) Daria Rudnik
No workplace is perfect. I've seen amazing organizations that I was so happy to work in great organizations. I was working for Deloitte. I was working for Swedbank, which is a great Swedish bank. I was working for some other companies, fast growing startups. They are amazing. But we also have like people are different. There are also conflicts, like misunderstandings, misalignment.

(06:45-07:03) Daria Rudnik
different things. The question is how you approach that. And if you are as an interviewer or a leader in this position, you have two options, just two. Well, the first one is you try to change something. And by changing something, it's not you're opposed to everything that's happening. You say you're doing it wrong.

(07:03-07:29) Daria Rudnik
It's trying to understand like what's the real cause of it. And in most cases, and I'm telling you that in most cases, it's just people are overloaded. There's so overloaded leaders, executives, everyone is just running. It's constant hustle. It's constantly doing the next thing without thinking, okay, what have we accomplished there? And with that, it's very hard to really focus on building

(07:29-07:45) Daria Rudnik
great culture on building relationships on noticing the right people if you see that but if you see that people just not willing to change they're not willing to do anything it's not just that they overloaded it's just the way they they are and that it's the way the culture is created well just

(07:45-08:05) Daria Rudnik
find something else there are so many amazing companies out there there's so many great cultures there's so many great leaders you can always find something or build something yourself you're not like stuck within the culture that is toxic for you thank you for that so do you have any um

(08:05-08:31) Daria Rudnik
like key elements that you think a dynamic team should have? Well, again, as you mentioned, I wrote a book, Clicking, and this book is exactly about how to build these self-sufficient teams, and it has five elements in that. So the first one, as I mentioned, is clear purpose. Teams are defined by clear purpose. What is that we are going to achieve? It's not that just we got together and we have one manager, hey, we're a team now, but

(08:31-08:49) Daria Rudnik
Get together, discuss, understand what's your shared purpose. The second one is linking connections, is how people on the team are connected to each other. And not just like one person to manage, a manager having one-to-ones with each team member, but also how those people are connected between themselves.

(08:49-09:09) Daria Rudnik
And how they are connected with other organizational units. How, like, what are their stakeholders? What are their internal customers? What are their internal partners? How do they build those relationships within the organization? The third one is integrated work. Well, the first two are pretty obvious and many leaders know about them.

(09:09-09:36) Daria Rudnik
But the integrated work is an interesting thing. When you get together and agree, here is how we're going to work together. Here are the rules of our engagement, our collaboration, communication. That's how we hold our meetings. That's how often we have our meetings. These are our deadlines. That's how we decide what's our next step, how we prioritize, how we communicate, and all the things that matters for the team. It creates so much change.

(09:36-09:55) Daria Rudnik
clarity for them. People stop feeling frustrated and uncertain. Okay, what should I do? Should I respond to this email right now? Should I respond to this email when I have all the answers? Like, what should I do? It's really a great tool. If you haven't done anything with your team, create one thing, team norms and rules of engagement. Like, you'll feel the difference.

(09:55-10:19) Daria Rudnik
The fourth one is collaborative decisions. If you're a leader, you don't need to make all the decisions by yourself. Some decisions are made by leaders, some decisions are made by the whole team, collectively, and some decisions can be made by individual contributors. So make sure you're very clear on who's deciding what and how those decisions are made. And finally, the fifth one is knowledge sharing and feedback.

(10:19-10:36) Daria Rudnik
how do you learn together, how do you give feedback to each other, how you request feedback from your internal clients, and how you grow together as a team. So when you have this clear purpose, linking connections, integrated work, collaborative decisions, and knowledge sharing, you'll have your team click.

(10:36-10:51) Idongesit Obeya
Beautiful. I love that. And please show us the book again for those people watching. Click King. And where can we find, where can we get a copy of this book, Daria? Well, Amazon and all the major book retailers about the nobles. You can find that.

(10:51-11:18) Idongesit Obeya
we're family dynamic and sometimes there are no shared values or there are no shared lived experiences so the person being forced to attend out of office event does not quite align with whatever is going on so imagine having an out of office event in a bar for a person that doesn't drink at all right so should that be a forced relationship and should that be punitive

(11:18-11:47) Daria Rudnik
For a person who doesn't feel like this actually doesn't align with whether my personality, my culture, or my personal beliefs. Well, you change a very important point here. Because, well, in many cases, companies have a team building. It means let's get together and drink some beers. No, that's not a team building. That's drinking beers. What I'm talking about is, okay, you have a clear purpose. I'll tell you a story. I mean, I don't want to theorize and explain. I'll tell you a story. I had a client. She was...

(11:47-12:12) Daria Rudnik
And still is. She was responsible for cybersecurity in a cloud computing company. And she had a team of fearful people. She's an amazing leader. She wanted to protect their team. She wanted them to feel safe. She wanted them to feel good. She didn't want them to be disturbed by other people, asking questions, or especially if they made a mistake or someone else made a mistake and they were blamed for this mistake. She didn't want them to handle that.

(12:12-12:31) Daria Rudnik
And she was the go-to person. She talked to everyone. She was overloaded, but she felt like she needed to do that. Well, at some point, she started to feel that she's burning out. It's not only her. When she looked at the results of the engagement survey for her team, she saw that the engagement rate dropped.

(12:31-13:01) Daria Rudnik
The team started to become disengaged. They were losing motivation and she didn't understand why. When we looked at how the communication is going within this team, we saw that she's the person super connected with all the organization, with decision makers, with internal customers, with everyone. While the team members, they were just like talking to themselves. And since she had like so much going on on her plate, she didn't spend too much time explaining what's going on to those people. And they felt isolated.

(13:01-13:16) Daria Rudnik
They didn't feel protected. They were losing meaning. While we're here, we're doing some meaningless work. What she changed after that, she made sure that those people went out and became connected to their organization.

(13:16-13:45) Daria Rudnik
They were going to the stakeholders. They were discussing what is needed from their team. They started discussing mistakes they made. That's how we grow. They became more connected with the wider organization. And they now think, okay, here are the people we serve. Here is what we need to create to do for those people. Here is how we are connected to the wider organizational goal. They started to see the bigger picture. They started to have this meaning and they felt engaged and they got their motivation back.

(13:45-14:07) Daria Rudnik
Well, and the leader got more time back because she didn't have to do it all by herself. She had another four people helping her to do that. So that's what I say about linking connection. It's not just having beers in a bar. It's about meaningful conversations with people who like you working together to create something great and amazing together to serve your clients to reach organizational goals.

(14:07-14:37) Idongesit Obeya
That is so beautifully said. And that also leans into the collaborative approach as well. There's some leaders that feel like they're the end all and be all. They make all the decisions. They do the connection. They do the thing that brings the thing into the thing. And, you know, that hustle culture or that hustle mentality you talked about in the beginning, that is what creates that. So for any leader listening to us today and, you know, for my team, you now understand my crazy.

(14:37-14:59) Idongesit Obeya
So on my team, when we meet, we have a segment called questions, contributions, suggestions. I want to hear everything. What are you questioning? What are you doing that you're questioning? Is this the right that we're supposed to take? What questions do you have that we all can contribute to help you out? And we have a very active conversation.

(14:59-15:27) Idongesit Obeya
Also, whatever it is, what should be discussed? What's the way forward? What are you seeing that is happening around us that we need to implement? What are you suggesting? And with every suggestion, if you suggest something, I trust you to champion it. Show me how we can do it, okay? Not every leader is like that. And I think, I'm not trying to excuse the behavior, but in a corporate world that is very competitive, I think people fear losing their jobs.

(15:27-15:42) Idongesit Obeya
or their position to a rising star. So how can a leader be effective without that insecurity of losing their position or their jobs to somebody that is great at what they do and can bring a different essence to the team?

(15:42-16:09) Daria Rudnik
You're right. It's a lot about leadership culture that we live in. And we kind of have this perception of when you talk about a leader, who's the leader? And you see, you instantly picture an image of someone standing up the hill with a cape flowing behind them, ready to save the world. That's a real leader. It's not. I mean, this complex, ever-changing world, no single heroic leader can save it all.

(16:09-16:33) Daria Rudnik
So you need a group of individuals, you need those averages, whatever you have, like you need many people who see the world from different perspectives. You have different skill sets that contribute to each other and this will save the world, this will save the organization. But we kind of need to make this transition and this goes two ways. One is people demanding this kind of leadership.

(16:33-16:50) Daria Rudnik
leaders themselves trying to be that kind of leaders that invest more in their teams rather than trying to whether it's trying to save them whether it's their insecurities or ego or the demands from the organizations and like from the top they also need to be uh

(16:50-17:14) Daria Rudnik
cultural change from the top on how we see leaders and I see companies changing that we have organizations that are going into like more flat flat organizational structures in more collaborative decision makings there are a lot of organizations like that but it's still the number of the organizations still needs to be bigger more more cultures like that

(17:14-17:33) Idongesit Obeya
Yeah, we do. And let's talk about your journey, Daria. So how did you get started on this? Like, why was this something that stuck out to you so much that you decided to be the solution? And we talked about your roots, quite impressive, over 20 plus countries globally.

(17:33-17:56) Idongesit Obeya
and you are represented in every continent. So you and I talked about being humbled by our growth. Was this even a thought process that, you know, this would reach this far when you started or you just saw a problem at a time and you felt like with your contribution, you could actually be a solution? So what was that journey like for you?

(17:56-18:23) Daria Rudnik
In my, in my previous job in my corporate role, I used to be chief people officer and I've seen, I've seen organizations going through different challenging situations and crises, and they were like, there could be some local crises like the, I was working for a bank and they, their license got suspended and they couldn't work for three months. And the way this, we handled the situation is by talking and in like

(18:24-18:43) Daria Rudnik
We're talking about our values and about culture and bringing people together. It was one of the best moments for organizations to build amazing culture. No one, like not a single person left organization during those hard times, because we were there together. We had a single, very clear purpose to.

(18:43-18:59) Daria Rudnik
We make sure the bank can operate further on. We were united by our shared values. We had a lot of conversation of how we work together and how we can overcome the situation. So we basically had all of those five pillars. And I thought, wow, that's just amazing how this company could do that.

(18:59-19:27) Daria Rudnik
And I also saw situations when there were mergers and acquisitions and there was a company, an organization, and the executive team was so scattered around. They were talking about themselves as a family. They had employees working for their organizations like 5, 10, 12 years, but no single executive could join this circle. Like every new person gets involved.

(19:27-19:57) Daria Rudnik
pushed out maybe unintentionally maybe without even realizing that but they kind of stuck together just on their personal connections because we are here that long and everyone else is just the outsider well they didn't end well the company was acquired and kind of dissolved and all the manager team was let go and i thought that's that's amazing how strong team can handle situations like financial crisis like there was a global financial crisis 2008

(19:57-20:23) Daria Rudnik
with this bank situation, military conflicts, pandemic, lots of things that can be handled by a strong team. And if team is not strong, if there is no team, they just go. In all of that, what I see is transparency on communication. And we're all adults and you can't fool people that you trust to perform complex tasks.

(20:23-20:49) Idongesit Obeya
you know and sometimes upper leadership do not see the essence in being relatable and if you're not relatable and you're not communicating openly and honestly with your team there is that sense of distrust and you're going to lose people you're going to push people out of the door intentionally or unintentionally so it's it's okay to step down from your throne whatever that is

(20:49-21:06) Idongesit Obeya
as a senior leader to be relatable because in time of crisis, people need that. People don't need to feel like they're just another body. And that is the easiest way to lose somebody. So you said the chief officer, right?

(21:06-21:31) Daria Rudnik
That was the role. So, and that is an HR role. So what does that really encompass within the HR framework? Well, that's basically everything from learning and development, performance management, recruitment. It's just, I mean, I don't really appreciate the HR because humans are not resources, but with people. So that's chief people officer.

(21:35-22:00) Idongesit Obeya
Should we change that? Oh, that's the reason. Companies are changing. They're like chief talent officer, people experience officer, chief happiness officer. There's a lot of experimentation going on with that, and I love that. Very good. So let's talk about the motivation to write your book. Daria, you've coached, you've helped teams, you've grown teams, you've restructured teams. What was that thing that pushed?

(22:00-22:16) Idongesit Obeya
to write the book. You're being consulted. You're being consulting with all these things. Why write a book? Why not just bottle lightning for just people who can have access to you? I have a mission in life. I want people to feel happy at work. I mean, I really do.

(22:16-22:44) Daria Rudnik
I feel people deserve that. And we spend so much time at the workplace. And it's possible. I've seen that. I've experienced that of how amazing it is to work in a great team, to contribute to something that's bigger than yourself. And I want more people to experience that. And of course, I'm just me. Of course, I have colleagues. I have lots of other people, amazing people who can help organizations do that. But brokers are an easy way to start working on that.

(22:44-23:05) Daria Rudnik
And this book, I wrote it specifically. It's very practical. There are templates and workshop scenarios and checklists and like things to say, things to do. Just do one things out of the book and you'll see the difference. And that's what I wanted to do. I wanted leaders to be able to start making this change themselves.

(23:05-23:20) Idongesit Obeya
Thank you that you wrote the book because we can all get a copy to your goodness. So thank you for everybody listening to us, Daria. How can they reach you? Somebody's interested in working with you. How can they reach you?

(23:20-23:36) Daria Rudnik
develop, I'm very open to connections on LinkedIn. You can find me and obviously my website, www.idealouding.com. I also put, uploaded some materials to support my book there so that you can download them and use them, try and see what's working for your team.

(23:36-24:03) Idongesit Obeya
Beautiful. So for anybody who didn't catch that, we'll make sure it's in the show notes. So you can just click in and connect with Daria to work with her, to learn about her and all the great stuff that she's doing. So Daria, because I like a little bit twist, I'm always asking for more. So for a listening audience, I usually ask my guests to leave a golden nugget or a

(24:03-24:25) Daria Rudnik
a bunch of golden nuggets. What golden nuggets would you like our listeners to walk away from this conversation with? Well, the main thing for me, and I really want people to hear that, is the era of heroic leadership is gone. I mean, you don't need to be a hero to save it. Whether you're an individual contributor or a leader, there are other people you can work together and collaborate with towards the

(24:25-24:49) Idongesit Obeya
mutual goal you're trying to achieve so the era of your work leadership is gone now it's time for empowered teams so build those amazing amazing teams find those amazing teams and you'll feel so much better yeah that's true find those amazing people not everybody will care about your company the way you do especially if you're an entrepreneur but you want somebody that has a shared value yes it's very important

(24:49-25:03) Idongesit Obeya
Also, before we close, what is your take when building a team of the highest low fire fast practice? Have you ever heard about it? Okay. Yeah, I see what I mean. Well, it depends how you find slow and fast.

(25:06-25:23) Daria Rudnik
But the hiring process is a very important one. What I would say is avoid the culture feed thing because culture feed is usually something, oh, here's someone like me. Yeah. Somebody who thinks the same. No, it's not the best way to choose.

(25:23-25:52) Daria Rudnik
the team members. Look at the whole team. Like what kind of team members do you have in your team? What kind of skills, energies, mindsets are missing on the team that would contribute to reaching your shared goals and hire people like that? But don't look too long. You don't have to look too long because I know there are companies that are looking, okay, we're three months looking for a person, six months looking for a person, two years looking for a person. I mean, if you're looking for a person for two years, you probably don't need that person. You don't need that person.

(25:52-26:22) Daria Rudnik
Definitely. So there's going to be like a balance and then great onboarding helps a lot with people starting to perform faster. If you onboard people, if you tell them about your rules, if you tell them about your team norms and how you work together, they don't need to guess. And that makes it so much easier for them to actually integrate into your team culture. But if you find someone who's not following your team norms and rules, yes, that's the point of finding someone. And I'll tell you,

(26:22-26:39) Daria Rudnik
another story i hope we have time but that's that's an amazing story about uh how team norms actually help with this hiring process so i was working with the team it was an executive team of a manufacturing company and they were great together but they had a lot of confidence

(26:39-27:00) Daria Rudnik
They were very engaged and passionate about their team, their organization being successful so that they could not agree to any single point. So they were all constantly arguing because some people thought, okay, we want to be number one organization. We need to find better providers and we need to find better suppliers. The other side, we need to find better suppliers.

(27:00-27:17) Daria Rudnik
distribution channels and the other side we need to produce faster and the other side we need to produce more quality goods so they all had different opinions of how they should work together and how like what are the team actually goals so one of the things we did with them we created those team norms sort of

(27:17-27:35) Daria Rudnik
Keep it up and cut it out behaviors. So keep it up behaviors. I behave and write about it in my book. So keep it up behaviors are those that you want to see more on your team. And for that, it was when you see a mistake or when you have a, see something is not right, speak it up. Don't hide it. Don't think that someone else will do that.

(27:35-27:59) Daria Rudnik
And they had cut it out behaviors. One of those cut it out. And these are behaviors that you don't want to see on your team ever. Like you don't want to tolerate this kind of behavior. One of the behaviors was speaking behind the back of other team members. So they had those keep it up behaviors and cut it out behaviors. And they were good on the shared goal. They had the strategy. They were good to go. I stopped working with them. And then six months later,

(27:59-28:20) Daria Rudnik
CEO and the founder, he reaches out to me and says, well, we're doing great according to plans, strategy is going, everything's fine, but I want to share something with you. The team decided that we need to let our chief commercial officer go. Why? Because she constantly violated those keeping up behaviors and she demonstrated those cutting out behaviors.

(28:20-28:40) Daria Rudnik
So the team decided that she's not part of the team. And they reached out to me, they reached out to the CEO and said, hey, we think she should not be part of the team because she's not following the rules. We all agreed upon. So that's one of the best ways to let people go. It's a team decision based on the norms that you've created together.

(28:40-29:10) Idongesit Obeya
Thank you for sharing that. And it's so refreshing to hear that a team's talked together for good. Usually you hear it on the reverse side. Usually it's the ganging up on one person, talking behind the back, supporting the toxic person. But that is quite refreshing to hear that a team for once had clear approach, clear outline what they wanted, and they stalked to it. And that is such a great thing to adopt. Going back to...

(29:10-29:39) Idongesit Obeya
the keeping of behaviors and the cutting out behaviors. I think sometimes because of relationships, some teams may have held on to the lady who was violating the core principles just because her son plays lacrosse with her nephew who also owns a dog that is related to the cat and the bird outside, right? So it perpetuates this

(29:39-30:07) Idongesit Obeya
continuous growth of a toxic person and a toxic behavior just because oh my goodness she's just dealing with a lot her mom is sick or her dad fell yesterday like what does that have to do with what the guiding principle of being professional in a professional setting so with that kind of presentation how injurious is that behavior to contain somebody who

(30:07-30:31) Daria Rudnik
blatantly or they claim ignorance, but I don't think it's true, who may not understand or know that they're breaking a team dynamic rules. Well, the great thing about creating team norms is that everyone, including this person, like including the toxic person, like any person on the team, they all said, we agree to those norms. And if we violate them, there'll be consequences.

(30:31-30:56) Daria Rudnik
So once something's going wrong, everybody sees that. It's super clear. It's super transparent. Rather than when you have, we have our corporate rules, they end this book, read the book, and you'll know what's going to happen. I mean, no one reads the book. And if you read the book, you can interpret it in different ways. So when you have those two norms, everyone agrees. Everyone talked about it. Everyone knows what's like, what are the consequences? So it's very clear. Yes.

(30:56-31:22) Idongesit Obeya
Thank you for that. Just that nobody reads the book. It is true. Daria, this was such a great conversation. Thank you so much for being here. I'm grateful for your presence. I'm grateful for what you do. Please continue to make workplaces healthy because some of us like to be happy in the workplace. So thank you for all that you do. Well, thank you so much, Ademkazeed. It's great. It was great talking to you. I love the questions. That was fun. Same here. Same here.

(31:22-31:46) Idongesit Obeya
thank you everybody for listening and yes that was what you think was this useful and please reach out to daria should you have a team of whatever size whether you're uh you know fortune 500 whether you are you know a small i don't like the term small business owner whether you're an entrepreneur business owner and you're managing a team if you need guidance we have the book

(31:46-32:11) Idongesit Obeya
If you need further guidance, again, we'll make Daria's information very available in the show notes. So you can click in and find her, consult with her, work with her, and take it from there. Thank you, everybody. Thank you, Daria, again. Bye. Yeah, thank you. Bye. Thanks for tuning in to Avigbec's podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe, rate, and leave us a review. It really helps us out. We'd love to hear your thoughts and continue the discussion.

(32:11-32:29) Intro
so join us on social media or drop us a message. Until next time, keep exploring, stay curious, and keep pushing the boundaries of your world.