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00:02:13 — Welcome to episode 488 of the BizBook PubHub podcast. Let's do this.
Robbie Samuels
00:02:25 — Welcome to BizBook Publishing Hub, the podcast that interviews experts who help entrepreneurs become successful authors and authors themselves about the ROI of publishing a business book. Now, here's your host, Robbie Samuels.
Robbie Samuels
00:02:41 — Creating a business book that truly makes an impact takes more than just writing. It requires a thoughtful strategy and having the right people in your corner. You don't have to figure it all out alone. And that's exactly why I. BizBook PubHub, a resource ecosystem with dozens of expert partners to help entrepreneur authors turn big ideas into powerful books. Whether you're drafting your first chapter or preparing to launch, the hub offers expert guidance on writing, editing, publishing, launching, and marketing strategies to help you achieve your goals. 00:03:13 — And our free networking events connect you with fellow authors and collaborators who understand the author journey. If you're ready to get the support you need, check out all of my author resources at bizbookpubhub. Com. And now I'm excited to introduce today's panelists. With me, I have Daria Rudnick, who wrote, Clicking, a team-building strategy for overloaded leaders who want stronger team trust, better results, and more time. 00:03:39 — Your go-to guide for transforming a team that depends on you into one that thrives without you. Offering a proven people-first framework to reduce burnout, reclaim your time, and lead with lasting impact. And I have also with me today, Rhodes Perry, who wrote, Imagine Belonging, your inclusive leadership guide to building an equitable workplace, which challenges leaders to go beyond diversity checklists 00:04:03 — and create workplaces where everyone feels like they belong, offering bold insights, real world stories, and an actionable framework to transform exclusion into connection and culture into community. Please join me in welcoming Daria and Rhodes. Welcome to the show. Thrilled to have you here. Daria, we're going to kick this off with a question to you. I just want to get a little more context for your book. 00:04:26 — So who did you have in mind when you're writing your book Clicking?
Daria Rudnik
00:04:31 — Well, first of all, thanks. Thanks for having me here. It's like, I'm excited to talk about the book. I mean, wrote the title and the topic of your book is very interesting as well. And I'm definitely going to read it. So my book, like I'm a team architect. I design teams. And my book is for team leaders who are like overloaded. I mean, there's so many demands for leaders. My book is here so that they can create teams that they are more self-sufficient. 00:04:57 — They don't require that oversight and control and micromanagement and all the things that managers are doing right now. They can work more independently and create more value that creates more time and purposeful work-life balance for leaders.
Robbie Samuels
00:05:14 — And what size organizations would benefit the most from this?
Daria Rudnik
00:05:19 — I mean, it's mostly for like growing organizations starting from like 100 to 1,000 people. But I mean, to be honest, like I talk about teams and team, we can see teams in all organizations of all sizes and organizations of all like industries. But that's what I knew most at the most, because I've been working with those leaders. I've been working in those organizations, so I know the pains of those people. So it's for most of these kind of organizations.
Robbie Samuels
00:05:47 — Sometimes scaling up those size of organizations is really, really difficult and the growth pains can hinder performance and not wanting people to stay, like they're like, I don't feel like I fit here, which actually brings me a great segue, look at that, Rhodes, to what it's like to belong at work. So tell us a little bit about who you had in mind for your book.
Rhodes Perry
00:06:09 — Yeah, yeah, similar to Daria, I'm writing for organizational and people leaders. That was Belonging at Work, Imagine Belonging. And actually what's behind me is working on a new book called Roads Less Traveled. And my audience is pretty consistent. And so these are the type of leaders that are really wanting, they recognize that they wanna be able to build cultures of safety, trust and belonging and aren't sure what to do. And what they're really afraid of, maybe what's not stated is a fear of getting it wrong and possibly causing more harm. 00:06:40 — And so the book is really, you know, to address some of those fears, right, and to provide an actionable guide, starting with themselves, looking at leadership development, looking at team building, and then looking at organizational change. So there's, there's a lot of different angles that the book covers, and just trying to break it down into really concrete actions that make it a little more realistic.
Robbie Samuels
00:07:04 — Yeah, it's a lot of theory, a lot of desire sort of for change, but how to affect change in a tangible way is something a lot of people can't connect the dots on. So I'd love a book like this to give people a way to move forward so that the principles they believe in become actual policy and lived reality for the people in those organizations. So it's very interesting. I have you both here on a panel based on your availability and your calendar, and yet your topics do dovetail so beautifully together. 00:07:34 — And Daria, I understand this is your first book, So I just want to ask, like, how you got past the inner voice, I think a lot of us have, about writing a book. Like, who am I to write a book? And how do you find time to write a book? And, you know, all that's like, what was that like for you to go from an idea for a book to having a book? 00:07:55 — Like, what was the impetus to move forward with this big effort?
Daria Rudnik
00:07:59 — It took me five years.
Robbie Samuels
00:08:01 — Fair.
Daria Rudnik
00:08:03 — Yeah, I started, like, I started writing a book, I think, a couple times. The first time I wrote about half of the book, and just, I stopped because I didn't know, okay, what's next? I mean, I didn't have the next chapter, the next word, I mean, didn't know what to do. And at some point, eventually, I had a plan, and I started working according to this plan, and I finished it. And so it feels like the plan, like, what is that that you want to say, how you break it up into smaller chunks. 00:08:31 — Like, what is that? It's like, what people are going to learn from each part? I mean, it's obvious, right? Every book about writing writes about this. But as soon as I had it, I had the book.
Robbie Samuels
00:08:44 — Yeah, I mean, it is a getting out of your own way process, I think, in some ways, like having to believe that your message is more important than the angst you feel about writing the message. And I really, you stuck with it. I'm so glad you shared that it took five years because there are people listening who are right now in the middle of that five-year journey. Either the very beginning or the messy middle part where they're like really not sure whether this is a go or not a go and then there are people who are getting really close to the finish line and it's hard to see what's around the corner. 00:09:15 — Rhodes, you clearly have been bitten by the author bug. You've got a couple books already out and one in the making. You had a book come out in 2018. This one that we're talking about now was in 22. Sounds like you've got another one kind of on the horizon. Take us back to the first book, like what were your feelings about that? 00:09:35 — And how was that different from how you approached book two and now book three?
Rhodes Perry
00:09:40 — Yeah, that's a great question. With the first book, it almost felt like urgency because I had had this idea for a long time, maybe 10 years. So Daria, I know that feeling of having something to say and then working through what I'm sure a lot of authors who come on panels like these, Robbie, will say to you, which is just, you know, it's the who am I, it's the imposter syndrome, it's all of those things. 00:10:11 — And I felt at that time, you know, this is 2018, so there were a number of books around diversity, equity, and inclusion, and in kind of using different versions of those, of that acronym. And a year before I heard Pat Wader speak, and she was heading up the people and culture work at LinkedIn, and I loved what she said, where she was saying, diversity, equity, and inclusion, 00:10:34 — I get it, and it's so important, that I need a feeling behind where are we going? And she had started to introduce the concept of belonging inside of the workplace, and I was like, ah, it's the emotional outcome. And it was this kind of hearing her say those words kind of clicked in the way I wanted to frame what I wanted to share for leaders. Like, at the end of the day, we do these strategies to create a workplace that's magnetic, where people want to show up. 00:11:01 — They want to give their best, and they feel like they get support, and they have agency to show up as authentically as they want, right? There's a lot of elements to it. And it was just that framing of when belonging is in the space, you unlock creativity, connection, all of those good things. And when it's missing, you know, what are some of these costs? And to really kind of lay that out in a business, to make the business case for leaders that get the idea but feel like it's a nice to have after their business is successful. 00:11:31 — And it totally rewrote that frame of like, this is the prerequisite for you to enjoy business success, for you to maybe even have those industry breakthroughs. So that was like, that was the feeling. It just took like literally a year, like 2017 was the catalyst and I was off to the races. I was like, oh, I can see it now. I think for me, I'm a very visual person, so once I can start to see some of the writing, the outline, then I just, the bud hit me. 00:11:56 — I guess now it's like a cadence of every four years, I feel like there's some kind of new contribution I can add based off of a lot of the client work that I'm doing, and that's, I'm back in that kind of creation zone right now.
Robbie Samuels
00:12:11 — You know, I've heard from a lot of other authors that they have codified a process, named a framework, or created the steps, identified like what they know by writing a book. Even though you've been teaching it, speaking about it, coaching about it for sometimes decades, having a book, and it's what Daria also just said, like how do you distill everything you know 00:12:36 — and believe about a topic to something that someone can consume who's not sitting in front of you? And Daria, like for you, that felt almost like it was an evolution going on as you're writing this book. And it sounds like Rhodes similarly, and for you it's leading to new books. But Dari, what was the early reception? Your book just came out just a few months before we're recording this. So congratulations, first of all, you brand new author already on podcasts, already participating in Kindle flash sales. 00:13:08 — I mean, kudos for having a marketing angle to a book, which not all authors even think about. But what was surprising about the early reception that you got to your book?
Daria Rudnik
00:13:19 — I can't say it was surprising because I was focusing my book on being very, very practical and was like adding some tools and frameworks and just take the book and use it. Don't read it. You don't have to read it all. I mean, it's good if you read it all, but just take one thing and use it and you'll see the results. And when people like share what they've learned from the book, it's like, oh, okay, I know the tools. It's practical. I can use it. So not so much surprising, but I'm happy I had that. 00:13:48 — I don't know, again, I'm just at the very beginning. We'll see what comes up later. But this is really important to me that people can use things and frameworks and tools I'm sharing in the book.
Robbie Samuels
00:13:59 — Very actionable. That's the kind of books I write too, is I wanna give people enough information that they could DIY just with some knowledge in a book, but also a realization that there's more to this than they originally thought. And if they want to go further, faster, or not get lost on the journey, like, hi, I'm right here, you know, like, okay, I can help you with that. Now that you know that there's a that there, which I think sometimes is missing in these conversations, like they don't know what they don't know about for you building teams. 00:14:31 — Like they have an idea of what they want to look like, but there's a gap between the idea and the action steps. So you're giving them that. You already have 20 reviews, 20 written reviews on Amazon, on which is awesome. Again, this has only been out a short time. It's 18 written reviews, 20 global ratings. For those who are listening, the global ratings are the stars. 00:14:52 — And then there's the people who took the time to actually write a review. And so a couple of things I wanna note there, I know 20 doesn't sound like a ton, but having about 20 written reviews puts you kind of separate from most authors who publish and don't have a plan to even get 20 written reviews. And the close relationship, up the ratio between 18 and 20. Like almost every person who came to the page to leave a review actually wrote one and didn't just do the five stars. 00:15:20 — So clearly you put a little effort in. I'm curious about Daria, your approach to your launch plan. Like there's the writing the book part which is its own whole thing, right? And a lot of people describe that as a marathon but a marathon runner can stop when they reach the finish line. I mean, this is a triathlon, there's a swimming, then there's the bike riding, and then there's the running. 00:15:45 — And so how did you have a plan for getting reviews, getting your book out there, like beyond it just being something that was published and in your hands? As a first time author, I'm sort of curious how you approach that because it's often a really a missing piece in the puzzle of how to be an author.
Daria Rudnik
00:16:03 — Well, I learn on the go, make mistakes and try to get some information before making a step. I think the best way to answer your question is for people who are listening and then watching, read Robbie's book, launch your book. You'll have all the necessary information there. So I did use some of the advice from there, getting the reviews, reaching out to people, asking them to read the book, sharing their advanced reader copy to anyone who's ready to read and share their honest feedback. 00:16:38 — You see they're not only five stars, they're four star review. And I really appreciate people write what they think.
Robbie Samuels
00:16:47 — First of all, thank you for the plug. I'm just new to the idea that my book's now out in the world and authors I'm meeting through the Kindle flash sale, which is how we all are here today, they got a chance to see the book. And for you, your book was released in August and my book was released in July. And so you got access to it from the launch team and the fact that you were able to, I mean, this is an example of what we were just talking about. 00:17:15 — You were able to DIY your own process at your own scale that felt comfortable to you and get good results. Like again, 20 being sort of a minimum goal out of the gate and you are out of the gate at that place. So congratulations to that. The book is called Launch Your Book, An Entrepreneur's Guide to Reviews that Drive Revenue. And folks can get more information about the book and the bonus content at booklaunchbrainstorm. Com. 00:17:40 — Rose, you have a massive network. You and I met at a big conference for LGBT business owners and hit it off. And I'm so sad to not be going back to that conference because I enjoy hanging out with you so much in person in whatever random cities we we were in for those conferences. But I walked away thinking, this guy's connected. He knows a lot of people. And then you and I connected also on social media and I was like, he's got a vast network. 00:18:10 — So how have you been able to leverage your network to help you get the word out about these books? How are you thinking about the milestones, the wins for your book? And did it change from book one to book two to what you expect for book three? Touch on your process for reviews. Basically, there's again, the writing part and then there's the launching slash marketing piece of this and your work is embedded in the work that you do in the world and the people you're connected to. 00:18:40 — How did you approach all of that?
Rhodes Perry
00:18:42 — Yeah, well, thank you. I'm very grateful that we know each other and I wish in 2018 you were out there and your book was out there at that time. So it was kind of, that was a different period in that first book was really to use it as a way of sharing more of my authority of what I had been doing in organizations for 15 years before starting my business in 2015, and then sharing a bit about the process 00:19:10 — and very much trying to create everyday actions, making those available and practical for people where it's like, we're not trying to, excuse the phrase, but we're not trying to boil the ocean, right? Like there's strategy behind this. And so the, you know, with the first book, my goal was to simultaneously as I was writing the book is thinking about like, what kind of knowledge products could come from this 00:19:36 — that could be shared as experiences to like, once you read the book, what do you do next? Right? So thinking about going into a monthly program of, you know, the everyday actions to build belonging at work no matter your role, right? That was part of it. Another piece at the same time was letting people know within my network, this was before we had the language of having a book launch team, but really thinking about people who would be able to write reviews that I included in the book in the first couple of pages to give people a sense of who I am and how I could help. 00:20:12 — From that group of people, we created the first Belonging Network Summit, which I think really helped expand my network because these were yearly summits that we were launching 2018, all the way past like the lockdown period of COVID. And it was such a great way of really introducing more and more people to this body of work and then inviting in other authors, other thought leaders that you know had a different take or were doing different parts of this type of work inside of organizations. 00:20:42 — And so I think that summit really set up a much bigger network to share Imagine Belonging, which was the very different goals that I had at that point where, you know, it got bestseller status, and that's great. 00:20:55 — What I wanted to do with that book was really to sell it to larger enterprises, corporations, large government agencies, and really to be able to have an on-ramp where people are familiar with the work, they can read the methodology, they could read the frameworks, they could try it, you know, and, right, like, have the experience of having a keynote, doing some workshops, ultimately doing longer engagements, six months, 12 months longer. And that was great, and I was like, oh, I guess every book does have a different goal. 00:21:27 — And so, yeah, with my new book, there's a different focus, but that's how I've kind of approached it.
Robbie Samuels
00:21:33 — Okay, I just wanted to tease out a little bit this thing you did for your first book, which is you created ecosystem of like-minded practitioners. You were not afraid to give up some of the spotlight and make space for others to join you on a stage. You created this summit, which was, did it start out as a virtual gathering?
Rhodes Perry
00:21:54 — Yeah, all the way through.

Robbie Samuels
00:21:57 — it was 100% virtual. So you were ready already.
When the pandemic shifted everything on Zoom, you were like, yeah, we're already gathering people without any geographic constraint, which is what in-person is, once we think about it that way. We're like, oh, huh, everyone has to be in Austin. That's a lot. So yeah, this is great. So you really use book one to activate and engage, not just generic network, but your affiliation and collaborations with other experts that were sort of related to your topic. 00:22:28 — And that strengthened in return your credibility because you were the convener of all these people who may or may not have known each other. And then you were able to then not just get to know them sort of in a private network space, but host something that had an audience and the audience then got to know all of you as well. So I just think it takes, I think, I think that way. 00:22:51 — That's how I think the roads, I will admit, most people, when I talked about this, they get nervous about, you know, giving up control or it not being about them, or I don't know, or who am I to like pull this together? There's a lot of angsty stuff that goes with it. So the fact that you leverage book one to build that, then book two allowed you to have a different goal, which was a revenue stream related one, as opposed to engaging your network one. 00:23:18 — And that sounds like that worked, that you probably are selling bulk orders of books, I imagine, with your speaking engagements, you're getting those longer term consulting. And what a difficult time period to be having these conversations, but to have that credibility of not just a book, but books, plural, probably separates you from a work in the DIB space sort of generically, you don't want to be a commodity. 00:23:45 — Curious, like how has being an author changed? Like you were doing this work for a long time. Give Daria some sense of how being an author might change the trajectory of the work that she's doing. And she's only got a small taste of it in the last couple of months, but you know, you've had a few years now. What was, like because of I'm an author, like what's the possibility there?
Rhodes Perry:
00:24:07 — The possibilities, I think, are endless, right? And I'm still discovering how, you know, I view this very much as art, right? Like you're putting out something, you're putting out your thinking, your approach, right? There's science behind it, right? And there's also your art, your take, your style. And people respond to that in many different ways. And some of the pleasant surprises that I didn't expect were invites to deliver keynotes on the book in Germany, in India, and in other countries where I was like, wow, that's really cool. 00:24:42 — I wasn't expecting that. A request to translate the book in many different languages so that more people around the globe could have access to the message that I was sharing. That surprised me, and it opened a lot of doors.
00:24:58 — That's just like a piece of it, but I think the other piece is, you know, there's people in, I have an online community, right? And so, you know, we're not going through the book. I'm not doing kind of a, you know, I certainly could do that. There's a million things you could do with the book, right? But just as we engage on whatever the topic is that we're gathering around, you know, people will casually say, oh yeah, we're reading Imagine Belonging in our book club. And like, and they're like quoting back things that I wrote and I'm like, oh yeah, I did write that, you know? So it's this, it's really magical.
00:25:29 — And, you know, I'm sure you've heard this before on panels like these, but like the book itself, you know, I feel like, like I delivered something into the world, I birthed this book and it takes on a life of its own, right? So I feel like these are like, I don't have kids, but I feel like these are my kids, you know? And it's cool to watch them grow up and just see how people still experience them and find so much value years after they've been written.
00:25:53 — And that's really surprising to me.

Robbie Samuels
00:25:55 — I love that your kids aren't just staying home. You know, I mean, gathering digital dust, Amazon, right? Like that is what I think happens to a lot of folks, but it sounds like they're regularly, people are engaging with the content with you. Daria, when you were getting started with this book, did you have a sense of what your goals were gonna be? You know, obviously you read my book, so there might have been some impetus to get reviews, but beyond that, is there a connection
00:26:21 — that really takes a reader who's excited by your content back to you, either through bonus content, or you're inviting them to connect with you on social media, or there's a program they can sign up for? Like, how did you connect the dots for people between the book and the business?

Daria Rudnik
00:26:40 — Well, I do have some bonus materials that people can download from my from our website, I do invite people to join me on LinkedIn, because again, like, I try to write the book as simple as possible so that people take it, you do it, you go for it, you have the result. But I do understand that sometimes it's hard for leaders to take a step back and kind of see the bigger picture. Okay, what is it they need to take to change? Or for HR, like I'm a former chief people officer, so I do know how it feels like you have so much information, you need to do so many things.
00:27:13 — Okay, I need someone who can help me do that. So that's kind of the other idea. You can use it yourself. If you need any help, I'm here to help. And here's my LinkedIn profile. Here's my website. Here is some additional materials. I keep doing those materials. I keep adding them on my website so that you can use them whenever you want.
00:27:32 — So that's the idea behind the book as a business. And the other thing is my ambition is I really want this book to be universities. Like Rosie said, like you want to be in corporate. I do want it to be in universities is because we don't know how to work as a team. Like we never learn how to work a team. Schools are the team. Families are the team. Universities are the team. And like when you join a workforce, be a team player. How do you do that?
00:27:58 — Like lead a team. Like what is it? And all the thing about like team leadership, not management, not delegation and control, but building and designing great teams. No one teaches that. So yeah, I'd be happy if this book, if my book would be in universities and students can read it.

Robbie Samuels
00:28:18 — I mean, most of our experience in schools, including even my experience in grad schools has been a team assignment. Oh God, a group. Hey, it's, you know, like, you see, you know, cause it's not, it's just an awful experience where there's like one person trying to manage it and get everything done and everyone else is cracked out. So I don't think we have a lot of good experiences with this in school.
00:28:40 — And I'm curious for you, Daria, I have some homework for you which is to go to your LinkedIn and look for people you know who either work at business schools or have an MBA and ask them for an introduction to a professor who might want to include your book as part of their curriculum, because it's easier to get started if you can get one or two professors to just include it as a maybe optional reading, share that you're willing to do a Zoom interview or Zoom presentation, or if it makes sense for you to drive there because it's not too far.
00:29:16 — But if you get good feedback, that's how you could take that feedback to a university and try to scale that up. It's hard initially to get your books into the bookstores because they're run by conglomerates. They're big chain stores. But if you can get people on the inside asking for it to be added, then you have a chance.
00:29:36 — And once it's on the list, it's easier to then spread to other schools because once it's been approved, like at one major university, it's more likely it'll be approved at others. So it could be a multi-stage process, but as a book like yours, it's very evergreen. It's not gonna go out of style. And so you can have a one to three year plan for making that happen. I think it's a great idea though. Like to me, it's just about creating the right strategy, energy behind it.
00:30:02 — What do you think of doing those steps?

Daria Rudnik
00:30:04 — I mean, I'm excited. I'm just like, we finished the call, I'll go to my LinkedIn profile looking for professors.

Robbie Samuels
00:30:10 — You know, because to me, this is the behind the scenes of why I think building a launch team is important. And I'll just say that having a clear idea at the beginning of the process of what you want to achieve will help you get the right people on the launch team. So, you know, if you know, for instance, that you wanna be working with business schools or certain size companies or HR, whatever the thing might be,
00:30:36 — that's who you want to have on your launch team, people who already know you, who are part of those spaces, because if they're engaged in this process over the time period of the launch and the soft launch and all that, then they're more likely to also be your champions in helping you figure out how to navigate next steps. Sort of almost organically, they'll think it was their idea. They're like, oh, wait, I want to help you do more things. And you're like, yeah, thanks. That's exactly what I was hoping for.
00:31:02 — Aside from getting this started, you know, getting the reviews and all that, Daria, is there anything in particular that you found challenging about being an author and getting to this point? Like, did you work with other professionals to help you get the book out in the world? Did you know a lot of authors who gave you insights about what happens next? I think as a first-time author, it's really hard to see the steps ahead of you since so many of them seem to be around a corner. Like, you're like, I don't know what comes next. I'm just feeling my way forward.
00:31:30 — But did you have either hired help or friends who were in the know that were able to give you some guidance?

Daria Rudnik
00:31:37 — Well, I took a course on like book writing, like long, long time ago, like business book writing. And then I had some people who wrote the book I had, I interviewed them, I asked them all the questions, they shared their journey, they shared their tips. And that's about it, like book publishing and launching. What I also did, and I'm very happy I did that, although it was pretty expensive, I worked with a developmental editor and she, I mean, she was amazing.
00:32:05 — She, she did ask questions I never thought of. She, and she looked at my book again, from the business perspective, she's like, she said, don't name, like find the names that are like catchy that people can remember that are yours. Like I had this, keep it up, get it out exercise that had no title. Now it has a title. So things like that, apart from just general flow of the book, how easy it is to to understand how easy it is to follow.
00:32:31 — So I highly recommend using it, like working with an editor, it's a great help.

Robbie Samuels
00:32:35 — For the Delmo's editor, I just wanna clarify for those, again, listening, it's different than a copy editor or a proofreader. So Delmo's editor, you wanna engage them earlier in the process because they can help you craft the first draft, get the ideas in an order that makes sense, help you find the business imperative for the book so that you're writing to the right kind of audience and having the right kinds of examples. And while you could go ahead and draft your first draft all on your own and then go work with somebody, you're gonna be rewriting a lot of stuff, which could be an exercise in frustration.
00:33:09 — So if you feel less confident that you have the right book in mind, or you just wanna get a double check, it's money well spent if you get someone who's development's editor who's asking. It's like a really thoughtful business strategy writing coach kind of all combined. And then yes, you still need an editor to make sure that it flows and that the syntax is all right, and you need a proofreader to make sure, you know, you crossed your I's and dotted all your T's or whatever the phrase might be.
00:33:36 — This is why you need to hire someone other than me to edit your book. Rhodes, I'm curious about your most effective marketing strategy that led to either book sales or quantities of books getting out into people's hands.
00:33:47 — Because I don't know that it matters whether people buy the book, which is nice if they do, but getting your book into the right people's hands will help lead to more action and activity and in the world that you wanna see, but also more invitations for you to be on stages or on podcasts, et cetera. So what's helped you get the volume of books out there.

Rhodes Perry
00:34:11 — To spread the word? I think hands down was the Belonging Network Summits that we did for like five years in a row. And that was, again, we had just talked about it, but bringing in other thought leaders, sharing their books, discussing how their books kind of complement the book that I had at the time and then later on with Imagine Belonging, that led to, number one, just more people coming into my world, right?
00:34:40 — So it was a free summit, five days, and so the volume of people that joined my listserv and just to follow my work and to build trust over time, that's enormous, right? That's led to, I mean, I don't even know how to actually quantify what that has led to in terms of different consulting projects, speaking, invitations, just new people to collaborate with, like other folks in my field.
00:35:07 — So I would say that, number one, was probably the most effective marketing strategy. And I remember, you know, I work with Publisher Purpose Press, so Jen Grace is a friend, a mutual friend. And when I had introduced this idea of a book summit in the same year that I was like getting my book out, she gave me good advice of like, maybe let's hold off on that
00:35:29 — and just kind of do some of the more traditional marketing strategies just to get it out to people in your launch team so they could share it with leaders inside of their organization. You know, that was like the first approach and that was good advice because I probably would have burnt out in that year trying to do all of the things.

Robbie Samuels
00:35:47 — Oh, yeah. Glad you said that part out loud. Because I think there are sort of two channels. I've seen with authors, those who don't think much beyond the book's publication date, and those who have like 92 ideas they want to do all at once. Yes. They kind of go from like, oh, I have to do that? Oh, I don't want to do that too, and that too, and that, and you're like, okay, order of operations here. Let's build some momentum from one thing to the other.
00:36:15 — So the next one's like less of a lift. One of the things I'm always coaching authors on is not setting up, whether it's PR, marketing, or some sort of networking that has people going through a book sales page before there are reviews and there are sales, which is why the launch team is this process that happens sort of, you know, starting before the book's even published
00:36:39 — with an advanced reader copy, like Daria said, collecting those advanced reviews and then having two or three weeks once the book is published as a soft launch where the focus is getting the people to buy the book and leave the review, so you have a verified purchase review and if the book's gonna hit number one, it's gonna happen in that two or three weeks because you've got dozens of people a day buying your book and then go and tell the world because now it has all that credibility attached to it.
00:37:07 — And for your first book, I noticed you have like nearly 200 global ratings. I think it was 193. And then you have 46 written reviews. So 46 written reviews is nothing to sneeze at, I got to say. Like, that's actually really good. But you can see there's a real difference between having the focus be reviews versus like, it's almost like in between like my comments, or like my posts versus write a comment to my post.
00:37:34 — Like, it's really easy to just do the five. There's not a lot of effort behind it, much more to get people to write something. Your book also has some sort of controversy built into the topic. Did anything come up? Because for book one and two, you're out there talking about this stuff. And it's interesting because the word belonging became the let's use this phrase instead of DEI because DEI was being targeted, but then people kind of realized that was happening.
00:38:05 — And then there was all of a sudden, like, I'm like, how could you do pushback against belonging? Look, but there are people who are doing that. How have you rode the waves, both like, you know, whether it's the reviews coming in or comments on social posts or just general negative or less than supportive feedback, like you're making yourself kind of a target as a leader to put this out there, something you really believe in, but it also does have a cost.
00:38:30 — So I'm sort of curious how you're riding that, how you're dealing with it.

Rhodes Perry
00:38:35 — Well, it's interesting when you look at kind of polling data, the term DEI is wildly misunderstood. So it's easy to kind of villainize something that most people don't understand. But right before the elections, polling data looked at people across political ideology and using the words diversity, equity, and inclusion, most people are favorable on. So there's that piece of it. I think that the framing of belonging and exclusion, that is a human need to belong, Maslow Pyramids of Needs.
00:39:05 — This kind of underscores what I find with most of the clients that I'm working with now, like even in this climate, is the recognition of that thinking that shifts. Where like, oh, this is a prerequisite for our business to succeed, especially in these times when there's so much happening outside of our workplace. We can rally around.
00:39:28 — And Daria, I'd be interested in hearing on the team building piece, but we have a team goal, we have a team mission, and so we're clear on what we need to do together, and we're clear using the belonging framework of what it takes to support each other, to get what we need so we can be successful, to build trust, to value what our unique contributions are. And so the organizations that have been doing this work for decades are still doing the work.
00:39:53 — It looks different and there has to be another strategy just to look out for risk of litigation, but there's always risk doing anything in business as we know, it doesn't stop us from putting ourselves out there. And so I'm still just trying to be a guiding light for people who recognize we still have a team, we still have a goal that we have to accomplish. And so how do we do this where we are literally putting our values into action? And that's hard, if values were easy, like, you know, we wouldn't be having, you know, an entire, you know, books and books out there on how to put values into action.
00:40:28 — And so, so I'm encouraged that the work remains and the people that are going to do the work are really going to put in the effort to invest time, treasure, you know, their, their energy behind it.

Robbie Samuels
00:40:41 — Daria, I'd love you to follow up with that, like, what are your response to everything you were just saying?
Daria Rudnik
00:40:47 — I mean, I agree, people need trust. People need to feel that they belong. And when I write about teams, I write about the team values. And one of the first exercises team does is they create a team charter. And in team charter, they discuss what do I need from this team? What does the team needs from me? What are my values? What are our collaborative values? What we share as values together? And that's where we find this the discourse of the team, the team culture.
00:41:16 — And when we talk about organization, organization is a team of teams. And again, you need to understand the team values or how they belong to organizational values and how they contribute to the organizational values. So I know there is like, there are different trends, but we all need human connection. We all need belonging. We all need trust no matter what. And especially again, especially with AI.
00:41:39 — I mean, when AI comes in, it stops, like it kind of feels we've become distant is using too much of AI, but we still need this human connection, even when AI is like all over.

Robbie Samuels
00:41:49 — The place. Well, in the introduction, when I was describing your book Rhodes, it ended with an actionable framework to transform exclusion into connection and culture into community. And like, I, that felt, I mean, it's buzzwordy, but like, I also am like, yeah, those are the words that like, it means something to me.
00:42:11 — And this whole thing actually is making me think of the controversy around Target, which I did stop going, which turned out not to be as hard as I thought it would be because I wanted them to do more, but they switched from focused work around particularly like black businesses, for instance, and then they have less of a DEI framework because they took all that language out because there was such pressure to do that, but they have belonging at bullseye, which is like their framework is around belonging in the workplace, which is like literally what you're talking about. Out. And it's meant to raise the conversation up.
00:42:46 — It's just that the concern, of course, is that if it's not really specific with marginal outcomes, will these organizations, these entities still do specific things for specific groups? So I could see that I understand the controversy and the tension, but I'm also like, the word belonging has a lot of weight. Don't diminish that. I'm curious, Rhodes, what would you weigh in on that about how people for good reasons are having to reframe the work that they're still committed to doing under the framework of belonging, but still need to have measurable outcomes.
00:43:19 — Like how do you help organizations manage those two kind of expectations?


Rhodes Perry
00:43:24 — Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think at the end of the day, we have to remember, and this is coming from within the field, diversity, equity, and inclusion. These are strategies to build healthier workplace cultures. It's trying to remember like, what is the long-term vision? And that's the whole reason why I wrote Imagine Belonging, because I was tired of going into organizations where a leader was like, we just need this workshop. And I'm like, for the sake of what? Like, what does that, what kind of culture does that produce?
00:43:51 — And more times than not, people couldn't answer that, right? Like they knew that they wanted to build something, but they weren't clear on what that was. So if we're not clear on like what the vision is, then we're gonna get lost. We're gonna quickly go off track. So, I think when you use belonging as an emotional outcome, right, like, this is inspirational, right? Like, if there's a workplace out there that can claim that every single person feels that strong sense of belonging, show me that, right? Like, that's what we're aspiring to.
00:44:21 — And what we can measure along with other strategies around diversity, equity, and inclusion is psychological safety, right? That must be present for someone to feel a sense of belonging. We can measure trust. If trust is not in the room, then the conversation of belonging, if safety and trust are not within the workforce at Target, that's a great aspiration to put belonging in the center.
00:44:42 — And they've got some work to do to rebuild trust, to rebuild safety for their workforce and certainly for the folks that shop and are consumers at their products.

Robbie Samuels
00:44:53 — Yeah, gosh, this is why we need professionals like the two of you coming into the organizations because these are big questions, big goals that people have, and it's a big goal just to write a book. So actually, as we wrap up here, I would love to hear from each of you, starting with Daria, advice that you would give to someone who is writing a book that will help them grow their business. Daria, you mentioned earlier the idea of having a developmental editor.
00:45:21 — Is there anything else you'd like to add that would be useful information or advice for that kind of author?


Daria Rudnik
00:45:29 — Well, I think what I would do next time is, which I probably will write in my next book sometime later, is I can have more clarity on the strategy because again, I thought it's my first book. I'll just make a bunch of mistakes, learn as I go, but it would be good to have more clarity. What is my, like, what do I want my target audience to be?
00:45:54 — Like with the university, the advice you gave me, like having more people on my launch team that could support me going into universities, be more thoughtful and not rushing. Although having a book is such a nice feeling. I have a book, it's something I can touch. And that's a great motivator as well.

Robbie Samuels
00:46:11 — Yeah, and I love that you've not been discouraged and you have more books in you to write. And we do learn by doing. I mean, honestly, I don't think anyone is gonna be feeling like book one did everything they ever needed it to do. Like there's gonna be a learning curve for all of us. But yeah, strategy. I'm a strategist first and foremost, no matter like what medium or like type of work we're talking about.
00:46:34 — And that's actually why I offer complimentary 30 minute book launch or relaunch brainstorming sessions just to get people on the right track, whether they're just getting started reading, writing the book, or they're ready to start thinking about what comes after the book and the launch process or the, you know, beyond publication day. For you Rhodes, I'm curious, like what advice would you give to someone who's writing a book to help them grow their business?

Rhodes Perry
00:46:58 — You had used the analogy of the marathon and the triathlon, and so I would encourage folks, wherever you're at in the process, pace yourself, right? Be ambitious, set the goals, and recognize the book, once it's out there, it will have a life of its own, and you will have the rest of your life to spend marketing that book, so long as you continue to believe in its message and its promise.
00:47:24 — So please pace yourself and just focus on the next goal. And you know, there's a really good acronym called FOCUS. So finish one course until successful. You got it, you can do it. I haven't heard that before.

Robbie Samuels
00:47:38 — I love this. Finish one course until successful. FOCUS, I love it. So Rhodes, how can people find you and follow your work? Sure, rhodesperry. Com, super easy. Fantastic, and for you, Dara, how can people find you and follow your work?

Daria Rudnik
00:47:54 — I mean, it's dairyrudnik. Com, but I'm very active on LinkedIn. I think it's the easiest way to connect with me.

Robbie Samuels
00:48:00 — You know, on the show notes, which are at bizbookpubhub. Com, I'm going to put your LinkedIn's, your YouTube's, your websites, your book links. I'll put all the information there. Everyone can go check out these show notes and all the past show notes at bizbookpubhub. Com. We've had hundreds of these kinds of conversations with author panels, one-on-one interviews with our hub partners who are experts in doing this work. We've had one of our interviews with authors who've had outstanding success because they're an author.
00:48:27 — We want to learn from them as well. You'll also get invitations to join our free virtual networking events where you get a chance to connect with other authors and speakers plus our experts. There's our hub partners, the directory. I mean, there's just so much information. We're about to release a blog, so you're going to learn great content from our hub partners. And they're available whether you're doing writing, editing, publishing, launching, or marketing, wherever you are in that process, go hang out with us at bizbookpubhub. Com.
00:48:55 — It's an incredible resource ecosystem, so definitely check it out. And panel, thank you so much for joining us. Rhodes and Daria, really, really appreciate it.

Rhodes Perry
00:49:04 — Thank you. It's great to be here.

Robbie Samuels
00:49:10 — Thank you. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Daria and Rhodes. What is your key takeaway? Something you'll put into action this week you'll benefit from for years to come. Need a reminder of what you heard? Check out the show notes at bizbookpubhub. Com. Look for episode 488. That's bizbookpubhub. Com.
00:49:30 — That's also where you'll find all the links and resources from today's show, as well as all the archived episodes, a free invitation to a virtual networking event for writers and authors, and our hub partners, experts ready to help entrepreneurs navigate through the complexities of writing, editing, publishing, and marketing their business books. If you enjoy what you're hearing, a review would be amazing. As you've heard, reviews are social proof, whether they're for a book or a podcast. Encourage fellow entrepreneurs to subscribe or follow for free wherever they listen to podcasts. And don't forget to tell that one friend you know would love to hear it.
00:50:06 — Thank you in advance. Tune in to future episodes for frank conversations about the ups and downs of the author journey. Find out what common mistakes you can avoid and what resources that you can use to ensure your effort leads to business growth. Remember, we release new episodes every Tuesday. Until next time, have an amazing week.
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